Origin of love in Japanese

[ragtag99]

This question comes from this. A lot of times you'll hear non-japanese
speakers regurgitate information they heard along the lines that
"...Japanese doesn't have a word for love, only 'to like' and 'like
very much.'" I've heard this more than once and its rather annoying.
Of course they say that 大好き just means 'like very much' when in
turn I reply that "maybe if you read the characters word for word but
the gestaltic feeling means love." I also try to reply with words such
as 恋愛、恋人、愛する, etc. But the response could be that
those are words borrowed from Chinese back in the day and Japan thus
had to borrow the words for "love."
Personally I stick with my orignial argument about 大好き, and could
argue further that technically languages such as Spanish, French... any
Latin based lanuguage's word for love came from Latin's 'amare' and
that language had to borrow it (albeit it's the languages root so that
still might have some fault to it).
So im brining it to this group of nihongo-affecinados and get your take
on it. And also wondering if anyone knows the earliest useage of a
love-type word was in Japanese writing and what was that word.

Jesse

[Phil Yff]

Post by ragtag99
So im brining it to this group of nihongo-affecinados and get your take
on it. And also wondering if anyone knows the earliest useage of a
love-type word was in Japanese writing and what was that word.

I believe The Tale of Genji uses the term 好み心 (このみ‐ごころ to refer to amorous
love. I doubt this is the earliest written reference. I'm sure,
considering the subject matter of the Kojiki that there is reference to
love in some of the songs and poems it contains.

Phil Yff

[H***@nifty.ne.jp]

Post by ragtag99
This question comes from this. A lot of times you'll hear non-japanese
speakers regurgitate information they heard along the lines that
"...Japanese doesn't have a word for love, only 'to like' and 'like
very much.'" I've heard this more than once and its rather annoying.
Of course they say that 大好き just means 'like very much' when in
turn I reply that "maybe if you read the characters word for word but
the gestaltic feeling means love." I also try to reply with words such
as 恋愛、恋人、愛する, etc. But the response could be that
those are words borrowed from Chinese back in the day and Japan thus
had to borrow the words for "love."
Personally I stick with my orignial argument about 大好き, and could
argue further that technically languages such as Spanish, French... any
Latin based lanuguage's word for love came from Latin's 'amare' and
that language had to borrow it (albeit it's the languages root so that
still might have some fault to it).
So im brining it to this group of nihongo-affecinados and get your take
on it. And also wondering if anyone knows the earliest useage of a
love-type word was in Japanese writing and what was that word.
Jesse

Try study love songs found in the Man-you-shuu.

[Phil Yff]

Post by H***@nifty.ne.jp

Post by ragtag99
This question comes from this. A lot of times you'll hear non-japanese
speakers regurgitate information they heard along the lines that
"...Japanese doesn't have a word for love, only 'to like' and 'like
very much.'" I've heard this more than once and its rather annoying.
Of course they say that 大好き just means 'like very much' when in
turn I reply that "maybe if you read the characters word for word but
the gestaltic feeling means love." I also try to reply with words such
as 恋愛、恋人、愛する, etc. But the response could be that
those are words borrowed from Chinese back in the day and Japan thus
had to borrow the words for "love."
Personally I stick with my orignial argument about 大好き, and could
argue further that technically languages such as Spanish, French... any
Latin based lanuguage's word for love came from Latin's 'amare' and
that language had to borrow it (albeit it's the languages root so that
still might have some fault to it).
So im brining it to this group of nihongo-affecinados and get your take
on it. And also wondering if anyone knows the earliest useage of a
love-type word was in Japanese writing and what was that word.
Jesse

Try study love songs found in the Man-you-shuu.

恋しい (こいしい) is a term used in the Manyoushuu with the meaning of loving or
yearning after someone or something so much one cannot bear to be apart
from the object of affection. I was trying to think of occurrences in the
Kojiki as a source even older than the Manyoushuu.

Phil Yff

[Bart Mathias]

Post by Phil Yff

Post by H***@nifty.ne.jp

Post by ragtag99
This question comes from this. A lot of times you'll hear
non-japanese speakers regurgitate information they heard along
the lines that "...Japanese doesn't have a word for love, only
'to like' and 'like very much.'" I've heard this more than once
and its rather annoying. Of course they say that 大好き just means
'like very much' when in turn I reply that "maybe if you read the
characters word for word but the gestaltic feeling means love." I
also try to reply with words such as 恋愛、恋人、愛する, etc. But the
response could be that those are words borrowed from Chinese back
in the day and Japan thus had to borrow the words for "love."
Personally I stick with my orignial argument about 大好き, and could
argue further that technically languages such as Spanish,
French... any Latin based lanuguage's word for love came from
Latin's 'amare' and that language had to borrow it (albeit it's
the languages root so that still might have some fault to it). So
im brining it to this group of nihongo-affecinados and get your
take on it. And also wondering if anyone knows the earliest
useage of a love-type word was in Japanese writing and what was
that word.
Jesse

Try study love songs found in the Man-you-shuu.

恋しい (こいしい) is a term used in the Manyoushuu with the meaning of
loving or yearning after someone or something so much one cannot bear
to be apart from the object of affection. I was trying to think of
occurrences in the Kojiki as a source even older than the Manyoushuu.

Aha, I'm going to beat Ben Monroe to pointing out that the closest the
Man'youshuu has to "恋しい (こいしい)" is 恋し (こ1ひ2し) and 恋しき
(こ1ひ2しき1) ! :-)

Bart

[Ben Monroe]

ragtag99曰く、

Post by ragtag99
This question comes from this. A lot of times you'll hear non-japanese
speakers regurgitate information they heard along the lines that
"...Japanese doesn't have a word for love, only 'to like' and 'like
very much.'" I've heard this more than once and its rather annoying.
Of course they say that 大好き just means 'like very much' when in
turn I reply that "maybe if you read the characters word for word but
the gestaltic feeling means love." I also try to reply with words such
as 恋愛、恋人、愛する, etc. But the response could be that
those are words borrowed from Chinese back in the day and Japan thus
had to borrow the words for "love."
Personally I stick with my orignial argument about 大好き, and could
argue further that technically languages such as Spanish, French... any
Latin based lanuguage's word for love came from Latin's 'amare' and
that language had to borrow it (albeit it's the languages root so that
still might have some fault to it).
So im brining it to this group of nihongo-affecinados and get your take
on it. And also wondering if anyone knows the earliest useage of a
love-type word was in Japanese writing and what was that word.

daisuki: Chinese dai + Japanese suki < suku < suk-
ren'ai: Definitely non-native
koibito: Japanese koi < kou < kohu < ko1h- + Japanese hito
aisuru: Chinese ai + Japanese suru < su < s-

What's wrong with the word ko1h- (ie, "koi")? It is well attested in
the oldest strata of Japanese. There is also the derived adjective
koisii < koisi < kohisi < ko1hisi.
(There is also the verb kou < kohu < ko2h- "seek, desire, beg, pray".
However, the initial syllables are different: ko1 vs. ko2.)

Other words that you should consider are omou < omohu < omoh- and sitau
< sitahu < sitah-.

Ben Monroe

[ragtag99]

Post by Ben Monroe
What's wrong with the word ko1h- (ie, "koi")? It is well attested in
the oldest strata of Japanese.

even though I just wrote both 恋愛 and 恋人 I completely didnt
realize that 恋 is the the japanese reading. That works fine. It's
interesting that such a strong emotional word is also a homophone for
carp and deep/strong (as in koi-kisu) and is the imperative for come.
But i guess when someone says "seal the envolope" im not thinking the
big flopping mammal.

[Ben Monroe]

ragtag99曰く、

Post by ragtag99

Post by Ben Monroe
What's wrong with the word ko1h- (ie, "koi")? It is well attested in
the oldest strata of Japanese.

even though I just wrote both 恋愛 and 恋人 I completely didnt
realize that 恋 is the the japanese reading. That works fine. It's
interesting that such a strong emotional word is also a homophone for
carp and deep/strong (as in koi-kisu) and is the imperative for come.
But i guess when someone says "seal the envolope" im not thinking the
big flopping mammal.

I'm sure you're referring to modern Japanese.
However, I would like to point out that historically some of these are
not homonymous.

鯉 koi < kohi < ko1hi "carp"
恋 koi < kohi < ko1hi < ko1h- "love"

If you are only looking at the noun ko1hi, then the two are homonymous.
It also exists as a verb ko1hu though. That is why I write the root as
ko1h-.

However, 来い koi is very different. First, the -i does not derive
from *hi. Second, the initial ko is ko2 as opposed to the ko1 found in
ko1h-. Also, you will not find 来い in old Japanese. The imperative
was only ko2. It wasn't until Heian that you find koyo. Following that
koi begins to appear. I suspect that koi may be *koyi < koyo.

Is koi-kisu 濃いキス? If so, then it would derive from koki kisu if
the expression was old enough.

Ben Monroe

[r***@benchsumo.zzn.com]

Post by Ben Monroe
ragtag99曰く、

Post by ragtag99
This question comes from this. A lot of times you'll hear non-japanese
speakers regurgitate information they heard along the lines that
"...Japanese doesn't have a word for love, only 'to like' and 'like
very much.'" I've heard this more than once and its rather annoying.
Of course they say that 大好き just means 'like very much' when in
turn I reply that "maybe if you read the characters word for word but
the gestaltic feeling means love." I also try to reply with words such
as 恋愛、恋人、愛する, etc. But the response could be that
those are words borrowed from Chinese back in the day and Japan thus
had to borrow the words for "love."
Personally I stick with my orignial argument about 大好き, and could
argue further that technically languages such as Spanish, French... any
Latin based lanuguage's word for love came from Latin's 'amare' and
that language had to borrow it (albeit it's the languages root so that
still might have some fault to it).
So im brining it to this group of nihongo-affecinados and get your take
on it. And also wondering if anyone knows the earliest useage of a
love-type word was in Japanese writing and what was that word.

daisuki: Chinese dai + Japanese suki < suku < suk-
ren'ai: Definitely non-native
koibito: Japanese koi < kou < kohu < ko1h- + Japanese hito
aisuru: Chinese ai + Japanese suru < su < s-
What's wrong with the word ko1h- (ie, "koi")? It is well attested in
the oldest strata of Japanese. There is also the derived adjective
koisii < koisi < kohisi < ko1hisi.
(There is also the verb kou < kohu < ko2h- "seek, desire, beg, pray".
However, the initial syllables are different: ko1 vs. ko2.)
Other words that you should consider are omou < omohu < omoh- and sitau
< sitahu < sitah-.
Ben Monroe

Also "horeru". Although in Classical Japanese they were grammatically
different verbs, I wonder if "horu" (long for, horeru, shitau) is from
the same original Japanese word as "horu" (want, hoshigaru, nozomu).
Seems probable, but I'm not willing to make that jump just from looking
at the two words in my Kogorin. :-)

Josh Reyer

[Kouji Ueshiba]

Post by r***@benchsumo.zzn.com
Also "horeru". Although in Classical Japanese they were
grammatically different verbs, I wonder if "horu" (long for,
horeru, shitau) is from the same original Japanese word as
"horu" (want, hoshigaru, nozomu). Seems probable, but I'm
not willing to make that jump just from looking
at the two words in my Kogorin. :-)

$B!&!!!V9{$k!J9{$l$k!K!W$H$$$&***@MU$O!V$\$s$d$j$9$k!"Wr9{$H$J$k!W$H(B
$B!!!!$$$&$N$,$I$&$bK\Mh$N0UL#$G$"$j!"!V9%$-$K$J$k!"L4Cf$K$J$k!W(B
$B!!!!$H$$$&0UL#$O<<D.8e4|$K$J$C$F=i$a$***@8$^$l$?$h$&$K8+$($^$9(B

$B!&!!0lJ}!"!VM_$9$k!W$N0UL#$N!VM_$k!W$O!"$+$J$j8E$$***@MU$N$h$&$G!"(B
$B!!!!F|K\=q5*$K$OO"BN7A$,8+$i$l$k$b$N$N!"K|MU=8$G$OO"MQ7A(B
$B!!!!!JL>;l7A!K$G$7$+8+$i$l$:!"!VM_$j$9!W$H$$$&7A$G8GDjE*$K;H$o(B
$B!!!!$l$k$h$&$K$J$C$F$7$^$C$F$$$k$h$&$G$9!#(B

$B$7$?$,$C$F!"!VM_$k!W$H!V9{$l$k!W$H$N4V$K$O$+$J$j$N;~4VE*$J:90[$,(B
$B$"$j!"N><T$rD>@\E*$K7k$S$D$1$k$N$K$O<c43$NL5M}$,$"$k$h$&$K(B
$B;W$($^$9!#(B
$B$b$A$m$s!"***@MU$N0UL#$O!"CO2<?eL.$N$h$&$K!";~Be$r$^$?$,$C$FN"$G(B
$BDL$8$F$$$k$3$H$b$"$k$+$b$7$l$^$;$s$N$G!"6D$C$F$$$k$h$&$J$3$H$,(B
$B$J$$!!$H$O8@$$@Z$l$^$;$s$,!"2DG=@-$O$d$dDc$$$N$G$O$J$$$G$7$g$&$+!#(B

$B!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>e!!<F!!8x!!Fs(B

[r***@benchsumo.zzn.com]

Post by r***@benchsumo.zzn.com
Also "horeru". Although in Classical Japanese they were
grammatically different verbs, I wonder if "horu" (long for,
horeru, shitau) is from the same original Japanese word as
"horu" (want, hoshigaru, nozomu). Seems probable, but I'm
not willing to make that jump just from looking
at the two words in my Kogorin. :-)

$B$$$&$N$,$I$&$bK\Mh$N0UL#$G$"$j!"!V9%$-$K$J$k!"L4Cf$K$J$k!W(B
$BF|K\=q5*$K$OO"BN7A$,8+$i$l$k$b$N$N!"K|MU=8$G$OO"MQ7A(B
$B!JL>;l7A!K$G$7$+8+$i$l$:!"!VM_$j$9!W$H$$$&7A$G8GDjE*$K;H$o(B
$B$l$k$h$&$K$J$C$F$7$^$C$F$$$k$h$&$G$9!#(B
$B$7$?$,$C$F!"!VM_$k!W$H!V9{$l$k!W$H$N4V$K$O$+$J$j$N;~4VE*$J:90[$,(B
$B;W$($^$9!#(B

$B$4CzG+$K$"$j$,$H$&$4$6$$$^$9!#$"$^$j<+?.$N$"$***@b$G$b$J$+$C$?$7!"(B
$B$3$***@bL@$,BgJQJY6/$K$J$j$^$9!#(B

$B%8%g%7%e!&%i%$%d!<(B

[Cindy]

Post by r***@benchsumo.zzn.com
Also "horeru". Although in Classical Japanese they were
grammatically different verbs, I wonder if "horu" (long for,
horeru, shitau) is from the same original Japanese word as
"horu" (want, hoshigaru, nozomu). Seems probable, but I'm
not willing to make that jump just from looking
at the two words in my Kogorin. :-)

$B$$$&$N$,$I$&$bK\Mh$N0UL#$G$"$j!"!V9%$-$K$J$k!"L4Cf$K$J$k!W(B

To fall in love with someone
$B$H$$$&I=8=$,$"$j$^$9$,!"DL>o$3$A$i$N?M$O$=$s$J$3$H8@$o$:!"(B
"I have a crush on

$BF|K\=q5*$K$OO"BN7A$,8+$i$l$k$b$N$N!"K|MU=8$G$OO"MQ7A(B
$B!JL>;l7A!K$G$7$+8+$i$l$:!"!VM_$j$9!W$H$$$&7A$G8GDjE*$K;H$o(B
$B$l$k$h$&$K$J$C$F$7$^$C$F$$$k$h$&$G$9!#(B

$B$3$NF|K\8l$3$=1Q8l$N(B "getting horny"

$B$7$?$,$C$F!"!VM_$k!W$H!V9{$l$k!W$H$N4V$K$O$+$J$j$N;~4VE*$J:90[$,(B
$B;W$($^$9!#(B
$BDL$8$F$$$k$3$H$b$"$k$+$b$7$l$^$;$s$N$G!"6D$C$F$$$k$h$&$J$3$H$,(B

[Bart Mathias]

Post by r***@benchsumo.zzn.com

Post by Ben Monroe
[...]
Other words that you should consider are omou < omohu < omoh- and sitau
< sitahu < sitah-.
Ben Monroe

Also "horeru". Although in Classical Japanese they were grammatically
different verbs, I wonder if "horu" (long for, horeru, shitau) is from
the same original Japanese word as "horu" (want, hoshigaru, nozomu).
Seems probable, but I'm not willing to make that jump just from looking
at the two words in my Kogorin. :-)

Sort of following up on what Mr. Ueshiba said, "hore-" is, with "boke-,"
one of a handful of what look like r/k doublets in Japanese.

Of course, starting with a "b" makes "boke-" a weird word from the get-go.

Bart

[Kouji Ueshiba]

Post by Bart Mathias
Sort of following up on what Mr. Ueshiba said, "hore-" is, with "boke-,"
one of a handful of what look like r/k doublets in Japanese.

$B!V$[$k!JWr$l$k!K!W!JF,$,%\!<$H$J$k!K!J2<#2CJ!K$KN`$7$?***@MU$H(B
$B$7$F!V$[$/!J$[$1$k!K!W!J2<#2CJ!K$,$"$j$^$9$N$G!"$3$NJ}$,(B
$B>e$***@bL@$K$O$h$jE,@Z$G$7$g$&!#(B
$B$J$*!"!V$[$&$/!J$[$[$/!)!K!J$[$&$1$k!K!W!J2<(B2$BCJ!K!JNc$($P!VM7$S(B
$B$[$&$1$k!W$H$$$&7A$G8=:_$b;H$o$l$***@MU!K$b$"$k$N$G$9$,!"(B
$B$3$N8l$K$J$k$H!";d$J$I$O!VCTJr!W$N!VJr!W$H$N4XO"$,5$$K$J$C$F(B
$B$-$^$9!#(B
$B!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>e!!<F!!8x!!Fs(B

[Bart Mathias]

Post by ragtag99
This question comes from this. A lot of times you'll hear
non-japanese speakers regurgitate information they heard along the
lines that "...Japanese doesn't have a word for love, only 'to like'
and 'like very much.'" I've heard this more than once and its rather
annoying. Of course they say that 大好き just means 'like very much'
when in turn I reply that "maybe if you read the characters word for
word but the gestaltic feeling means love." I also try to reply with
words such as 恋愛、恋人、愛する, etc. But the response could be that those
are words borrowed from Chinese back in the day and Japan thus had to
borrow the words for "love." Personally I stick with my orignial
argument about 大好き, and could argue further that technically
languages such as Spanish, French... any Latin based lanuguage's word
for love came from Latin's 'amare' and that language had to borrow
it (albeit it's the languages root so that still might have some
fault to it). So im brining it to this group of nihongo-affecinados
and get your take on it. And also wondering if anyone knows the
earliest useage of a love-type word was in Japanese writing and what
was that word.

One could counter that "...Japanese doesn't have a word for love" bit by
pointing out that English doesn't have separate words for 恋 (native),
愛 (borrowed), 恋愛 (either borrowed or coined from foreign elements),
which have different meanings, and are all common words.

Japanese also has another borrowing, ラブ, which is probably almost as
vague as its source.

Bart

[Dan Rempel]

Post by Bart Mathias

Post by ragtag99
This question comes from this. A lot of times you'll hear non-japanese
speakers regurgitate information they heard along the lines that
"...Japanese doesn't have a word for love, only 'to like'
and 'like very much.'" I've heard this more than once and its rather
annoying. Of course they say that 大好き just means 'like very much'
when in turn I reply that "maybe if you read the characters word for
word but the gestaltic feeling means love." I also try to reply with
words such as 恋愛、恋人、愛する, etc. But the response could be that
those are words borrowed from Chinese back in the day and Japan thus
had to
borrow the words for "love." Personally I stick with my orignial
argument about 大好き, and could argue further that technically
languages such as Spanish, French... any Latin based lanuguage's word
for love came from Latin's 'amare' and that language had to borrow it
(albeit it's the languages root so that still might have some fault to
it). So im brining it to this group of nihongo-affecinados and get
your take on it. And also wondering if anyone knows the earliest
useage of a love-type word was in Japanese writing and what was that
word.

One could counter that "...Japanese doesn't have a word for love" bit by
pointing out that English doesn't have separate words for 恋 (native),
愛 (borrowed), 恋愛 (either borrowed or coined from foreign elements),
which have different meanings, and are all common words.
Japanese also has another borrowing, ラブ, which is probably almost as
vague as its source.

One of the readings for 恋愛 in the version of Enamdict I have here is
らぶ; is this for real?

Dan

--
When properly administered, vacations do not diminish productivity:
for every week you're away and get nothing done, there's another when
your boss is away and you get twice as much done.
-- Daniel B. Luten

[j***@csse.monash.edu.au]

One of the readings for $BNx0&(B in the version of Enamdict I have here is
$B$i$V(B; is this for real?

Possibly. I looted a lot of lists of names, and it is likely that
$BNx0&(B $B!J$i$V!K(B Rabu (f) came from there. Very hard to verify that there
is some poor female stuck with that monicker.

Still is $BNx0&(B/$B$i$V(B any stranger than $BNx0&(B read $B$3$3$"(B, $B$l$"(B or $B$l$s$"(B?

[Bart Mathias]

One of the readings for $BNx0&(B in the version of Enamdict I have here
is $B$i$V(B; is this for real?

Possibly. I looted a lot of lists of names, and it is likely that $BNx0&(B
$B!J$i$V!K(B Rabu (f) came from there. Very hard to verify that there is
some poor female stuck with that monicker.

I bet that as a non-name $BNx0&(B has been given the hurigana $B$i$V(B/$B%i%V(B over
37 dozen times in the last 60 years.

Still is $BNx0&(B/$B$i$V(B any stranger than $BNx0&(B read $B$3$3$"(B, $B$l$"(B or $B$l$s$"(B?

Ooh, what are those?

The $B$l$"(B reminds me of a time back in 1956 when I was interpreting in
some $B%"%k%5%m(B or something for a fellow GI who had just come from Korea.
(What we used to call a $BD+A/9{$1(B.) The "hostess" used the word $B$l$$$"(B
$B$$(B a couple of times, and I had to confess that I didn't know it.

I didn't understand a little later when she suggested that I ditch the
guy and come to a party in her $B$h$8$g$&$O$"(B either. I've never been
much of a party person.

Bart

[Kouji Ueshiba]

Post by Bart Mathias
One could counter that "...Japanese doesn't have a word for love" bit by
pointing out that English doesn't have separate words for $BNx(B (native),
$B0&(B (borrowed), $BNx0&(B (either borrowed or coined from foreign elements),
which have different meanings, and are all common words.

$B!V0&!W$H$$$&***@MU$,$J$$!!$H;XE&$9$k<+BN$OJL$K9=$o$J$$$H;W$&(B
$B$N$G$9$,!J;v<B$O;v<B!K!"(B
$BLdBj$O$=$N;v<B$r;XE&$9$k$K$h$C$F2?$r8@$*$&$H$7$F$$$k$+!!$H(B
$B$$$&$3$H$G$O$J$$$+$H;W$$$^$9!#(B
$BF|K\8l$K!VA1!W!V0-!W!VM&5$!W!VCN7C!W!&!&!&$J$I$KBP1~$7$?***@MU$,$J$$!!(B
$B$H;XE&$9$k$N$HF1$8$G$O$J$$$G$7$g$&$+!#(B
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