Discussion:
Making use of listening practice: Experience so far
(too old to reply)
Travers Naran
2007-11-28 16:33:53 UTC
Permalink
My listening skills are crap, so I've been working on improving my
listening skills. At first, I was just trying to listen and understand
audio, but that wasn't working. I talked with my friend in Saitama, and
he said to improve his listening skills, his teacher recommended
dictation and "shadowing". I knew about dictation (writing down what
you hear), but I knew there was no way I could keep up with a native
speaker's speed, but shadowing was a new thing I hadn't heard.

Shadowing is that old kid's game of:

$B7;!'(B"What are you doing?"
$BDo!'(B".. What are you doing?"

$B7;!'(B"Are you repeating everything I say?"
$BDo!'(B".. Are you repeating everything I say?"

$B%Q%&!<!<!<!<!*(B

He said the Interpreter's School he went to used that to get people's
listening skills at a higher level.

What the heck! I tried it.


Day 1: @_@;;;

Good grief, that's hard! I think I managed one or two words at a time.
But it was useful: I realised that there was a huge time lag between
hearing a word, recognizing it and repeating it, and during the last 2
stages, I had stopped listening. That would go a long way to explaining
things.

Day 2: @_@;;

Once I learned to stop thinking and just try to keep listening while
letting my mouth go, I was hearing more, but still only managing 2-3
words. Mostly because in the listening material I was using (Yomiuri's
Daily news podcast), there was a lot of words I didn't know.

Day 3: @_@

All I was doing was mumbling, but I did notice when I focused on
speaking, I stopped listening. So I took a deep breath and just tried
to let the phonemes flow through me, and if I recognized a word, I tried
not to get distracted into trying to mentally translate (which results
in me stop listening). Results were better.

I began trying shadowing with the anime I was watching. Still mostly
mumbling, but on the simpler sentences that I knew the vocab to, I was
beginning to shadow successfully. Hmm, progress.

Day 4: >_<;

Decided to take one story from the Yomiuri podcast for November 27th
(http://podcast.yomiuri.co.jp/podcast_yomiuri_online/files/071127.mp3)
and transcribe it (dictation practise). Well, Windows Media Player
sucked because I couldn't say "repeat this small section over and over
again". But then I remembered I had Audacity (open-source sound
editor). I could highlight sections of the podcast and play it repeatedly.


Using Audacity: Hints & Tips

1. Use a long section to repeat; short clips lead to madness

I noticed if I tried to highlight a single word and repeat-play it, I
had the hardest time parsing out the sounds. But if I chose a larger
selection (4-5 words), it was a lot easier. I realised why of course:
people subtly change their pronunciation depending on what they are
saying. So if you hear the problem word in context, it becomes easier
to pick out the individual sounds.

2. Use a complete story, but don't try to do the whole 30 minute podcast

The story was about Moriya's corruption charges. It was about 40
seconds, I think, but that took several hours to transcribe. Lots of
playing 3-4 word bursts repeatedly. It gets quite interesting actually.
I've come to realise how musical and poetic the phrase $B;v>p$r>e;J$K(B
really is. :-)

3. Audacity has "tempo slowdown"

Audacity has a filter that will take your selection, slow it down and
correct the pitch. I.e., it's as if you asked the speaker to slow down.
It's not perfect. If you do it more than 20%, you get pops and
distortions, but 10% can disambiguate a rushed over sentence.


So far, the experience has been quite rewarding. I can listen to the
podcast at work during lunch and quietly murmur to myself. Shadowing is
great because you can use it anywhere and seems to help me to stop
THINKING about Japanese and just listening to it and letting the
understanding become more automatic.

Dictation is also a very useful exercise. I knew that before, but I
don't think I truly appreciated it until I did this exercise. I also
found doing it by hand to be a bit more rewarding for some reason. I'm
not sure why though. I tried using JWPce but it felt "wrong". But when
I wrote it out in kana on paper, it felt "right" and seemed to stick
better. It also let me brush on up writing kana again.

OK, so this wasn't exactly a thrilling post, but I just needed to share
this and I don't like blogging. :-)

And hey, it's better than the spam we've been getting lately. :-)

--
-----
Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
Ben Finney
2007-11-28 23:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
OK, so this wasn't exactly a thrilling post, but I just needed to
share this and I don't like blogging. :-)
On the contrary, I found it very interesting. I'll likely give some of
these techniques a try now that you've reported on your progress.
Post by Travers Naran
And hey, it's better than the spam we've been getting lately. :-)
More signal! Less noise!
--
\ "All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental." -- |
`\ _Timequake_, Kurt Vonnegut |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
Cindy
2007-11-29 02:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
My listening skills are crap, so I've been working on improving my
listening skills.
It is good that you are aware of it. Can I tell you one more thing?
You are the best word-for-word translator. It is not a compliment.
Post by Travers Naran
And hey, it's better than the spam we've been getting lately. :-)
I bet you don't want to hear, but my listening training was to watch
the same movies over and over again. Naturally, I memorized all
lines. Then, I became able to use those phrases. I have watched
"Amadeus" about 15,459 times; "Shrek" about 2,000 times; "Nemo" about
6,500 times; "Flags of Our Fathers" about 87 times; "Teahouse of
August Moon" about 8,000 times"; "Shogun" just a few times (too
long).

I guess it'll work for you with anime movies.
Travers Naran
2007-11-29 02:57:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Travers Naran
My listening skills are crap, so I've been working on improving my
listening skills.
It is good that you are aware of it. Can I tell you one more thing?
You are the best word-for-word translator. It is not a compliment.
$B$&$k$5$$!"!!$*$P$5$s!#(B
Post by Cindy
Post by Travers Naran
And hey, it's better than the spam we've been getting lately. :-)
I bet you don't want to hear, but my listening training was to watch
the same movies over and over again. Naturally, I memorized all
lines. Then, I became able to use those phrases. I have watched
"Amadeus" about 15,459 times; "Shrek" about 2,000 times; "Nemo" about
6,500 times; "Flags of Our Fathers" about 87 times; "Teahouse of
August Moon" about 8,000 times"; "Shogun" just a few times (too
long).
I guess it'll work for you with anime movies.
$B$P$+$K$7$J$$$G$/$@$5$$!#(B

--
-----
Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
Cindy
2007-11-29 03:07:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by Cindy
Post by Travers Naran
My listening skills are crap, so I've been working on improving my
listening skills.
It is good that you are aware of it. Can I tell you one more thing?
You are the best word-for-word translator. It is not a compliment.
$B$&$k$5$$!"!!$*$P$5$s!#(B
When did I become your aunt? I don't want to even if you give me one
million dollars. (vomitting)
Post by Travers Naran
Post by Cindy
Post by Travers Naran
And hey, it's better than the spam we've been getting lately. :-)
I bet you don't want to hear, but my listening training was to watch
the same movies over and over again. Naturally, I memorized all
lines. Then, I became able to use those phrases. I have watched
"Amadeus" about 15,459 times; "Shrek" about 2,000 times; "Nemo" about
6,500 times; "Flags of Our Fathers" about 87 times; "Teahouse of
August Moon" about 8,000 times"; "Shogun" just a few times (too
long).
I guess it'll work for you with anime movies.
I am not!

Dramas, movies, news, or TV shows are too difficult for you right now
(judging from what you wrote). Especially, "Ninja Warrior", it is
impossible for you to understand the commentator. They are crazy, but
one thing I can guarantee about them is that they speak correct
Japanese.
Travers Naran
2007-11-29 05:20:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Travers Naran
Post by Cindy
Post by Travers Naran
My listening skills are crap, so I've been working on improving my
listening skills.
It is good that you are aware of it. Can I tell you one more thing?
You are the best word-for-word translator. It is not a compliment.
$B$&$k$5$$!"!!$*$P$5$s!#(B
When did I become your aunt? I don't want to even if you give me one
million dollars. (vomitting)
$B$3$C$A$3$=!#(B
Post by Cindy
I am not!
$B$=$&$+$J!#!!$?$$$F$$26$N$3$H$r$P$+$K$9$k$G$9$+$i!#!!%9%#%s%G%#$5$s$NJV;v(B
$B$O>iCL$+$I$&$+$OJ,$+$i$J$$!#(B
Post by Cindy
Dramas, movies, news, or TV shows are too difficult for you right now
(judging from what you wrote). Especially, "Ninja Warrior", it is
impossible for you to understand the commentator. They are crazy, but
one thing I can guarantee about them is that they speak correct
Japanese.
$B$=$&$J$s$G$9!#!!$b$&%I%i%^$N(BDVD$B$,$"$j$^$9!"$G$b$^$@$G$-$J$5$=$&$G$9!#(B

--
-----
Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
Evan Monroig
2007-11-29 04:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Once I learned to stop thinking and just try to keep listening while
letting my mouth go, I was hearing more, but still only managing 2-3
words. Mostly because in the listening material I was using
(Yomiuri's Daily news podcast), there was a lot of words I didn't
know.
That was an interesting post, thanks !

I don't do shadowing in Japanese but I'm brushing up my dusty German
skills these days and what I do is first listen a few times, then read
the corresponding text and look up words, until I understand mostly
everything, and only then do shadowing.

Since I can't shadow a whole text on first try I start with parts of
sentences, repeat them a few times until I can speak them at native
speed and with correct (to my ear) pronounciation, and only then work
with the whole text (or a part of it if it is very long).

Dunno if it's optimal, but it works for me :).

Evan
Travers Naran
2007-11-29 05:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evan Monroig
Post by Travers Naran
Once I learned to stop thinking and just try to keep listening while
letting my mouth go, I was hearing more, but still only managing 2-3
words. Mostly because in the listening material I was using
(Yomiuri's Daily news podcast), there was a lot of words I didn't
know.
That was an interesting post, thanks !
I'm glad people were interested. Thank you. :-)
Post by Evan Monroig
I don't do shadowing in Japanese but I'm brushing up my dusty German
skills these days and what I do is first listen a few times, then read
the corresponding text and look up words, until I understand mostly
everything, and only then do shadowing.
Since I can't shadow a whole text on first try I start with parts of
sentences, repeat them a few times until I can speak them at native
speed and with correct (to my ear) pronounciation, and only then work
with the whole text (or a part of it if it is very long).
Dunno if it's optimal, but it works for me :).
I've done that too, but I have precious little material with scripts to
work with (I have a link to a site with links to such material on the
web if anyone is interested). I think it's becoming familiar with the
vocabulary and meanings you will be hearing. Hearing strange material
for the first time, one's mind instantly tries to decode it first which
wrecks the exercise. For the news podcast, I'm finding transcribing the
item first then trying to shadow works best, which I think gives the
same result as your technique.

--
-----
Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
muchan
2007-11-29 09:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
My listening skills are crap, so I've been working on improving my
listening skills. At first, I was just trying to listen and understand
audio, but that wasn't working. I talked with my friend in Saitama, and
he said to improve his listening skills, his teacher recommended
dictation and "shadowing". I knew about dictation (writing down what
you hear), but I knew there was no way I could keep up with a native
speaker's speed, but shadowing was a new thing I hadn't heard.
$B7;!'(B"What are you doing?"
$BDo!'(B".. What are you doing?"
$B7;!'(B"Are you repeating everything I say?"
$BDo!'(B".. Are you repeating everything I say?"
(snip)
I did it this "shadowing" a lot when I was learning a new language.
Often just listening the radio works.

Telling from the experience, the progress of listning comes in steps
like first, you start to recognize kind of "phonetical characteristics"
of the language, and learn to imitate/simulate it, at the same time
you hant for intonation, rhythm, etc., a bigger structure of sentense,
then you start to hear like kind of "parse engine" of grammer without
understanding the meaning of each word, in this phase, you know one
verb was said, for example although you may not know what was that verb
and what it does mean, etc., then come to the phase that you understand
"some of it"...) and with my personal estimation, when that "some"
comes to 60% to 70% of understanding, there is a certain kind of
"bang!" and you feel you understand "most" of it, with some words
here and there you don't know.

Similar effect you can get with fast reading too. Just reading a lot
of pages, without searching every unknown word in dictionary.
Only when you find an unknown word you encounter many times, and
you feel without knowing that word you can't guess what's going on,
you search and learn the word in depth, and wait next encounter.

In both case, keypoint is "a lot of input", and let your brain process
them without conscious effort to remember each of it. Your brain will
remember the words the most frequently met, and the most important to
get the whole meaning, first, while creating big repository of word
"heard somewhere sometime".

muchan
Cindy
2007-11-29 13:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by muchan
Post by Travers Naran
My listening skills are crap, so I've been working on improving my
listening skills. At first, I was just trying to listen and understand
audio, but that wasn't working. I talked with my friend in Saitama, and
he said to improve his listening skills, his teacher recommended
dictation and "shadowing". I knew about dictation (writing down what
you hear), but I knew there was no way I could keep up with a native
speaker's speed, but shadowing was a new thing I hadn't heard.
$B7;!'(B"What are you doing?"
$BDo!'(B".. What are you doing?"
$B7;!'(B"Are you repeating everything I say?"
$BDo!'(B".. Are you repeating everything I say?"
(snip)
I did it this "shadowing" a lot when I was learning a new language.
Often just listening the radio works.
Telling from the experience, the progress of listning comes in steps
like first, you start to recognize kind of "phonetical characteristics"
of the language, and learn to imitate/simulate it, at the same time
you hant for intonation, rhythm, etc., a bigger structure of sentense,
then you start to hear like kind of "parse engine" of grammer without
understanding the meaning of each word, in this phase, you know one
verb was said, for example although you may not know what was that verb
and what it does mean, etc., then come to the phase that you understand
"some of it"...) and with my personal estimation, when that "some"
comes to 60% to 70% of understanding, there is a certain kind of
"bang!" and you feel you understand "most" of it, with some words
here and there you don't know.
Similar effect you can get with fast reading too. Just reading a lot
of pages, without searching every unknown word in dictionary.
Only when you find an unknown word you encounter many times, and
you feel without knowing that word you can't guess what's going on,
you search and learn the word in depth, and wait next encounter.
In both case, keypoint is "a lot of input", and let your brain process
them without conscious effort to remember each of it. Your brain will
remember the words the most frequently met, and the most important to
get the whole meaning, first, while creating big repository of word
"heard somewhere sometime".
This is an effort-maker's plan, which is truly worthwhile trying.
However, most Japanese language learners don't want to go that far, so
they start making many kinds of excuses to explain that the plan won't
work for them. Therefore, I got to use reverse-psychology. I am not
bullying Travers although it looks like it. I am trying to help. All
I say is -- Kimi ni ha muri desu, Traverse.
Travers Naran
2007-11-29 15:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by muchan
I did it this "shadowing" a lot when I was learning a new language.
Often just listening the radio works.
I'd love to use the radio! But work has a no streaming policy. T_T
Post by muchan
Telling from the experience, the progress of listning comes in steps
like first, you start to recognize kind of "phonetical characteristics"
of the language, and learn to imitate/simulate it, at the same time
you hant for intonation, rhythm, etc., a bigger structure of sentense,
then you start to hear like kind of "parse engine" of grammer without
understanding the meaning of each word, in this phase, you know one
verb was said, for example although you may not know what was that verb
and what it does mean, etc., then come to the phase that you understand
"some of it"...) and with my personal estimation, when that "some"
comes to 60% to 70% of understanding, there is a certain kind of
"bang!" and you feel you understand "most" of it, with some words
here and there you don't know.
That's good to know. I'm getting the impression that's what happened,
but I wasn't sure.
Post by muchan
Similar effect you can get with fast reading too. Just reading a lot
of pages, without searching every unknown word in dictionary.
Only when you find an unknown word you encounter many times, and
you feel without knowing that word you can't guess what's going on,
you search and learn the word in depth, and wait next encounter.
Really? I've got a couple easy-reading books and a short story
anthology I can use like that. I'll give it a try.
Post by muchan
In both case, keypoint is "a lot of input", and let your brain process
them without conscious effort to remember each of it. Your brain will
remember the words the most frequently met, and the most important to
get the whole meaning, first, while creating big repository of word
"heard somewhere sometime".
Yeah, that's what I'm beginning to learn. I learned that I was
"thinking" about Japanese too much, and that's a severe handicap. I'm
beginning to get used to the idea of not thinking when processing
Japanese. And I agree about the "word heard somewhere sometime" thing.
I wasn't sure to mention it, but I noticed I'm now developing a
reservoir of words I've heard but don't know the meaning of.

Another interesting thing I noticed. While watching some more anime
last night, I noticed that while shadowing, I began to figure out some
words I didn't know just by context (just like I do in English). This
is certainly a less stressful way of building vocabulary than pure
flash-cards.

And lots of input is certainly key. A 30 minute daily news podcast
helps, but I think I can find other things to use as well like podcast
blogging.

--
-----
Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
muchan
2007-11-29 15:29:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by muchan
Similar effect you can get with fast reading too. Just reading a lot
of pages, without searching every unknown word in dictionary.
Only when you find an unknown word you encounter many times, and
you feel without knowing that word you can't guess what's going on,
you search and learn the word in depth, and wait next encounter.
Really? I've got a couple easy-reading books and a short story
anthology I can use like that. I'll give it a try.
"fast reading" but sure still "trying to understand".
Just don't care you didn't get the meaning well, and go on.

Otherwise, I heard it:
"I went to lessons of fast reading, and finally,
I could now read Tolstoi's War And Peace in just three minutes.
I understood it was about Russia."

8)

muchan
Dan Rempel
2007-11-29 15:49:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by muchan
Post by Travers Naran
My listening skills are crap, so I've been working on improving my
listening skills. At first, I was just trying to listen and understand
audio, but that wasn't working. I talked with my friend in Saitama, and
he said to improve his listening skills, his teacher recommended
dictation and "shadowing". I knew about dictation (writing down what
you hear), but I knew there was no way I could keep up with a native
speaker's speed, but shadowing was a new thing I hadn't heard.
$B7;!'(B"What are you doing?"
$BDo!'(B".. What are you doing?"
$B7;!'(B"Are you repeating everything I say?"
$BDo!'(B".. Are you repeating everything I say?"
(snip)
I did it this "shadowing" a lot when I was learning a new language.
Often just listening the radio works.
Telling from the experience, the progress of listning comes in steps
like first, you start to recognize kind of "phonetical characteristics"
of the language, and learn to imitate/simulate it, at the same time
you hant for intonation, rhythm, etc., a bigger structure of sentense,
then you start to hear like kind of "parse engine" of grammer without
understanding the meaning of each word, in this phase, you know one
verb was said, for example although you may not know what was that verb
and what it does mean, etc., then come to the phase that you understand
"some of it"...) and with my personal estimation, when that "some"
comes to 60% to 70% of understanding, there is a certain kind of
"bang!" and you feel you understand "most" of it, with some words
here and there you don't know.
Similar effect you can get with fast reading too. Just reading a lot
of pages, without searching every unknown word in dictionary.
Only when you find an unknown word you encounter many times, and
you feel without knowing that word you can't guess what's going on,
you search and learn the word in depth, and wait next encounter.
In both case, keypoint is "a lot of input", and let your brain process
them without conscious effort to remember each of it. Your brain will
remember the words the most frequently met, and the most important to
get the whole meaning, first, while creating big repository of word
"heard somewhere sometime".
FWIW that corresponds with my experience, especially starting to
perceive structure/phonetic characteristics, and what you referred to as
the "parse engine" phase. I also think you're absolutely right that the
key is lots of input without a lot of conscious effort: even us adults
will eventually get it.

Dan

--
Q: What is printed on the bottom of beer bottles in Minnesota?
A: Open other end.
Bill Steele
2007-11-29 18:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by muchan
Telling from the experience, the progress of listning comes in steps
like first, you start to recognize kind of "phonetical characteristics"
of the language, and learn to imitate/simulate it, at the same time
you hant for intonation, rhythm, etc., a bigger structure of sentense,
then you start to hear like kind of "parse engine" of grammer without
understanding the meaning of each word, in this phase, you know one
verb was said, for example although you may not know what was that verb
and what it does mean, etc., then come to the phase that you understand
"some of it"...) and with my personal estimation, when that "some"
comes to 60% to 70% of understanding, there is a certain kind of
"bang!" and you feel you understand "most" of it, with some words
here and there you don't know.
I seem to be in a stage somewhere between "parse" and "some of it,"
where I recognize the words I know and the grammatical structure (mostly
verb endings), but the words I don't know don't sound like words I don't
know, just like mumbling.

"Boku no ---------------------- ite, keredomo Tokyo niwa, ---------------------- de aru."

Maybe I skipped over "phonetical characteristics" too fast?
Dan Rempel
2007-11-29 15:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
My listening skills are crap, so I've been working on improving my
listening skills. At first, I was just trying to listen and understand
audio, but that wasn't working. I talked with my friend in Saitama, and
he said to improve his listening skills, his teacher recommended
dictation and "shadowing". I knew about dictation (writing down what
you hear), but I knew there was no way I could keep up with a native
speaker's speed, but shadowing was a new thing I hadn't heard.
$B7;!'(B"What are you doing?"
$BDo!'(B".. What are you doing?"
$B7;!'(B"Are you repeating everything I say?"
$BDo!'(B".. Are you repeating everything I say?"
$B%Q%&!<!<!<!<!*(B
Off topic (what else is new?), but I can't resist:



Dan

--
We are all born charming, fresh and spontaneous and must be civilized
before we are fit to participate in society.
-- Judith Martin, "Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly
Correct Behaviour"
Dan Rempel
2007-11-30 00:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Rempel
Post by Travers Naran
My listening skills are crap, so I've been working on improving my
listening skills. At first, I was just trying to listen and understand
audio, but that wasn't working. I talked with my friend in Saitama, and
he said to improve his listening skills, his teacher recommended
dictation and "shadowing". I knew about dictation (writing down what
you hear), but I knew there was no way I could keep up with a native
speaker's speed, but shadowing was a new thing I hadn't heard.
$B7;!'(B"What are you doing?"
$BDo!'(B".. What are you doing?"
$B7;!'(B"Are you repeating everything I say?"
$BDo!'(B".. Are you repeating everything I say?"
$B%Q%&!<!<!<!<!*(B
http://youtu.be/GiqGCghbczk
Assuming, of course, that your weren't already referring to that...

Dan

--
A closed mouth gathers no foot.
Cindy
2007-11-30 01:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Rempel
Post by Dan Rempel
http://youtu.be/GiqGCghbczk
Assuming, of course, that your weren't already referring to that...
Dan
--
A closed mouth gathers no foot.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Do you know any Japanese? Can you contribute any information on the
Japanese language? If you don't, hokano guruupu he douzo.
Dan Rempel
2007-11-30 02:32:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Dan Rempel
Post by Dan Rempel
http://youtu.be/GiqGCghbczk
Assuming, of course, that your weren't already referring to that...
Dan
--
A closed mouth gathers no foot.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Do you know any Japanese? Can you contribute any information on the
Japanese language? If you don't, hokano guruupu he douzo.
Yes and yes, what makes you ask?

Dan

--
Experiments must be reproducible; they should all fail in the same way.
Travers Naran
2007-11-30 02:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Rempel
Post by Dan Rempel
http://youtu.be/GiqGCghbczk
Assuming, of course, that your weren't already referring to that...
I wasn't. Prepare to die, Rempel, for tricking me into watching yet
another @#$! wazzup commercial. You're understanding while I'm
murdering you is greatly appreciated. :-)

--
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Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
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