Discussion:
Please help translate this program!
(too old to reply)
archagon
2003-11-16 06:37:35 UTC
Permalink
Please help me! I don't know japanese, and online translators can't
translate programs...if you can, please clearly state what each box
and option does here. I really need this and would greatly appreciate
it!

Thank you so much:

http://www.gametech.co.jp/downloads/gjcwrite130/gjcwrite130.zip
Michael Cash
2003-11-16 07:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Please help me! I don't know japanese, and online translators can't
translate programs...if you can, please clearly state what each box
and option does here. I really need this and would greatly appreciate
it!
http://www.gametech.co.jp/downloads/gjcwrite130/gjcwrite130.zip
Ya wany we should translate the readme file too?

== GJカートリッジライター for GB伊次郎 V1.30 ==

☆追加機能

■設定ウインドウに、GJカード16/64M BIOSのアップグレード機能を追加

・保存 :GJカード16/64M内のBIOSをファイルに保存します。
・書き込み:GJカード16/64MにBIOSを書き込みます。


GJカード16/64Mにおいて、カラーマルチROMを作成する場合に使用します。
※カラー用BIOSファイルは、弊社HPにてダウンロードする事ができます。


■ROMファイル情報表示機能の追加

ROMイメージファイルのヘッダ情報を確認する事が出来ます。


■プリンタポートアドレスの設定項目に、0x278/0x3BC を追加

ポートアドレス、0x278/0x3BCに対応しました。



☆その他

・複数バンクを使用した、RAMデータアクセス時の不具合を修正
・パラレルポート通信の安定性を向上


☆DLLについて

”GJCWrite.exe”は、「MFC42.DLL、MSVCRT.DLL」を使用します。
「GJCWRITE.EXE
ファイルは欠落エクスポートXXXXXXXにリンクされています」と、
表示される場合は、「MFC42.DLL、MSVCRT.DLL」をダウンロードし、
”GJCWrite.exe”と同じフォルダにコピーして下さい。
j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
2003-11-16 09:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Cash
Ya wany we should translate the readme file too?
Now, now, Michael. Don't go undercutting me!
--
Jim Breen
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Computer Science & Software Engineering,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Travers Naran
2003-11-16 16:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
Post by Michael Cash
Ya wany we should translate the readme file too?
Now, now, Michael. Don't go undercutting me!
How much do people charge for translation from Japanese, and what do
they charge by? The number of characters or words?
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
Canada, Earth, Milky Way, etc. | <www.geocities.com/naran500/>
"Stand Back! I'm a programmer!" |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Healey
2003-11-16 19:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
Post by Michael Cash
Ya wany we should translate the readme file too?
Now, now, Michael. Don't go undercutting me!
How much do people charge for translation from Japanese
A lot. Believe me. (Cf. "supply and demand" in your handy Dictionary of
Economic Terms.)
Post by Travers Naran
and what do
they charge by? The number of characters or words?
It depends on the job. I mostly charge by the number of words in the
completed translation, but sometimes I can work a deal with the client
based on the size of the job and according to a couple of
Proprietary(r)(tm)(c)(phd)(#$%&!) formulas for calculating precisely how
many English words the number of Japanese characters in the original
will produce.
Louise Bremner
2003-11-16 21:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Healey
Post by Travers Naran
How much do people charge for translation from Japanese
A lot. Believe me. (Cf. "supply and demand" in your handy Dictionary of
Economic Terms.)
Note that "a lot" can depend on which side you're looking from.
Post by Phil Healey
Post by Travers Naran
and what do
they charge by? The number of characters or words?
It depends on the job. I mostly charge by the number of words in the
completed translation, but sometimes I can work a deal with the client
based on the size of the job and according to a couple of
Proprietary(r)(tm)(c)(phd)(#$%&!) formulas for calculating precisely how
many English words the number of Japanese characters in the original
will produce.
Oooooo-eeerrrrrr.... maybe you handle different kinds of translations,
but I reckon that half the number Japanese characters is pretty close to
the final word count. Whups.... Have I given away a trade secret?

But I have discovered it's a mistake to give a new client a choice of
either the English word count divided by 200 to give a nominal page
count or the Japanese character count divided by 2 to give English words
(which are then divided by 200 to give nominal pages), because the
client is sure to remember it as half the Japanese page count and get
peeved when the six pages of magazine article are not billed as three
pages of translation....

________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Phil Healey
2003-11-16 23:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louise Bremner
Post by Phil Healey
Post by Travers Naran
How much do people charge for translation from Japanese
A lot. Believe me. (Cf. "supply and demand" in your handy Dictionary of
Economic Terms.)
Note that "a lot" can depend on which side you're looking from.
Hmmmm...
Post by Louise Bremner
Post by Phil Healey
It depends on the job. I mostly charge by the number of words in the
completed translation, but sometimes I can work a deal with the client
based on the size of the job and according to a couple of
Proprietary(r)(tm)(c)(phd)(#$%&!) formulas for calculating precisely how
many English words the number of Japanese characters in the original
will produce.
Oooooo-eeerrrrrr.... maybe you handle different kinds of translations,
but I reckon that half the number Japanese characters is pretty close to
the final word count. Whups.... Have I given away a trade secret?
Pshaw! "Pretty close"? That's not Precise(TM)!

Anyway, that equation doesn't work out at all for certain types of
translations. See below.
Post by Louise Bremner
But I have discovered it's a mistake to give a new client a choice of
either the English word count divided by 200 to give a nominal page
count or the Japanese character count divided by 2 to give English words
(which are then divided by 200 to give nominal pages), because the
client is sure to remember it as half the Japanese page count and get
peeved when the six pages of magazine article are not billed as three
pages of translation....
It's always a mistake to give the client too much information. That's
axiomatic.

I do a lot of financial stuff (God help my clients - I might in fact be
contributing in my own small way to the current stagnation of the
Japanese economy), and all those charts, graphs, and other visual aids
(often "grouped," requiring tedious re"grouping" after tediously
clicking through all those tedious little fucking text boxes fuck)
rarely have words like "the," "a," "is," "fuck," etc. (which make up a
large percentage of normal text), so their word/character ratio drops
(rises? Boy, I should learn some math).

Although, yes, half is generally pretty close.
Louise Bremner
2003-11-17 00:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Healey
Post by Louise Bremner
But I have discovered it's a mistake to give a new client a choice of
either the English word count divided by 200 to give a nominal page
count or the Japanese character count divided by 2 to give English words
(which are then divided by 200 to give nominal pages), because the
client is sure to remember it as half the Japanese page count and get
peeved when the six pages of magazine article are not billed as three
pages of translation....
It's always a mistake to give the client too much information. That's
axiomatic.
Tell me about it? It's a corollary of: Never do work for friends, or, if
you do get nagged into it, always get the conditions down in writing. (I
heard her say "there's no real hurry", but she claims she added "...but
I'd like it by the end of the month". And then it turned out it's not
immediately obvious how to open a text file (double-clicking on it
opened it in OE as a long, very thin column of text).
Post by Phil Healey
I do a lot of financial stuff (God help my clients - I might in fact be
contributing in my own small way to the current stagnation of the
Japanese economy), and all those charts, graphs, and other visual aids
(often "grouped," requiring tedious re"grouping" after tediously
clicking through all those tedious little fucking text boxes fuck)
rarely have words like "the," "a," "is," "fuck," etc. (which make up a
large percentage of normal text), so their word/character ratio drops
(rises? Boy, I should learn some math).
Uh.... That isn't translation work--it's DTP and should be charged as an
extra service.
Post by Phil Healey
Although, yes, half is generally pretty close.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Phil Healey
2003-11-17 00:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louise Bremner
Uh.... That isn't translation work--it's DTP and should be charged as an
extra service.
The time's also factored into the equation, but I was just talking about
the word/character formula.
Drew Hamilton
2003-11-18 16:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louise Bremner
(which are then divided by 200 to give nominal pages), because the
client is sure to remember it as half the Japanese page count and get
peeved when the six pages of magazine article are not billed as three
pages of translation....
I used to have a boss and the running joke about him was that he
would only remember the lowest number that anyone said during a cost
estimate:

"Well, with the developers we'll need to hire, new machines, as
well as all of the time that it will take to develop the
prototype, I estimate that it'll cost us $87,000.00"

"Hmm, okay."

"Hey, it's coffee time, wanna break for 15 minutes?"

"It's only gonna cost $15.00?! Great!"
--
- awh
http://www.awh.org/
Kevin Wayne Williams
2003-11-16 22:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
How much do people charge for translation from Japanese, and what do
they charge by? The number of characters or words?
My translator hasn't revealed his exact pricing algorithm, but it seems
to be about USD$0.23/word for English to Japanese, and about
USD$0.27/kanji for Japanese to English. I can always guess within a few
percent what my charge will be by using those rules.

KWW
Travers Naran
2003-11-16 23:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Wayne Williams
Post by Travers Naran
How much do people charge for translation from Japanese, and what do
they charge by? The number of characters or words?
My translator hasn't revealed his exact pricing algorithm, but it seems
to be about USD$0.23/word for English to Japanese, and about
USD$0.27/kanji for Japanese to English. I can always guess within a few
percent what my charge will be by using those rules.
How do you know if your translator is any good?
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
Canada, Earth, Milky Way, etc. | <www.geocities.com/naran500/>
"Stand Back! I'm a programmer!" |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Healey
2003-11-16 23:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by Kevin Wayne Williams
Post by Travers Naran
How much do people charge for translation from Japanese, and what do
they charge by? The number of characters or words?
My translator hasn't revealed his exact pricing algorithm, but it
seems to be about USD$0.23/word for English to Japanese, and about
USD$0.27/kanji for Japanese to English. I can always guess within a
few percent what my charge will be by using those rules.
How do you know if your translator is any good?
That's an interesting question. How the hell does someone judge a
translation they can't read? I guess you've just gotta know someone who
speaks the language, who you trust, and who will tell you whether the
translation is good or not.
Kevin Wayne Williams
2003-11-16 23:46:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by Kevin Wayne Williams
Post by Travers Naran
How much do people charge for translation from Japanese, and what do
they charge by? The number of characters or words?
My translator hasn't revealed his exact pricing algorithm, but it
seems to be about USD$0.23/word for English to Japanese, and about
USD$0.27/kanji for Japanese to English. I can always guess within a
few percent what my charge will be by using those rules.
How do you know if your translator is any good?
By having my Japanese marketing partners go over his material. Every
once in a while they suggest a change, but they say he does a good job.
The changes they make are the kind of changes I might make to an
engineer's writing when I am making marketing materials out of them.

KWW
Phil Healey
2003-11-16 23:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Wayne Williams
Post by Travers Naran
How much do people charge for translation from Japanese, and what do
they charge by? The number of characters or words?
My translator hasn't revealed his exact pricing algorithm, but it seems
to be about USD$0.23/word for English to Japanese, and about
USD$0.27/kanji for Japanese to English. I can always guess within a few
percent what my charge will be by using those rules.
What kind of translation is it?
Kevin Wayne Williams
2003-11-16 23:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Healey
Post by Kevin Wayne Williams
My translator hasn't revealed his exact pricing algorithm, but it seems
to be about USD$0.23/word for English to Japanese, and about
USD$0.27/kanji for Japanese to English. I can always guess within a few
percent what my charge will be by using those rules.
What kind of translation is it?
Generally product specifications for communication products, as well as
marketing slideshows to describe them. My translation load is 97%
English to Japanese. Most of the Japanese material I can wade through
myself, but my Japanese is just not up to being persuasive and clear (or
even coherent) to a Japanese audience. If you go peek at
http://www.paxonet.com/downloads/Viti_prod_brief.pdf and
http://www.paxonet.com/downloads/vitijp.pdf, you get a pretty good feel
for the kind of material.
KWW
Phil Healey
2003-11-17 00:06:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Wayne Williams
Post by Phil Healey
Post by Kevin Wayne Williams
My translator hasn't revealed his exact pricing algorithm, but it
seems to be about USD$0.23/word for English to Japanese, and about
USD$0.27/kanji for Japanese to English. I can always guess within a
few percent what my charge will be by using those rules.
What kind of translation is it?
Generally product specifications for communication products, as well as
marketing slideshows to describe them. My translation load is 97%
English to Japanese. Most of the Japanese material I can wade through
myself, but my Japanese is just not up to being persuasive and clear (or
even coherent) to a Japanese audience. If you go peek at
http://www.paxonet.com/downloads/Viti_prod_brief.pdf and
http://www.paxonet.com/downloads/vitijp.pdf, you get a pretty good feel
for the kind of material.
Naruhodo. Way above my head, but it looks like the translator knows
his/her stuff.
Paul Blay
2003-11-16 09:36:49 UTC
Permalink
"Michael Cash" wrote ...
Post by Michael Cash
Post by archagon
Please help me! I don't know japanese, and online translators can't
translate programs...if you can, please clearly state what each box
and option does here. I really need this and would greatly appreciate
it!
http://www.gametech.co.jp/downloads/gjcwrite130/gjcwrite130.zip
Ya wany we should translate the readme file too?
Don't be silly. Online translators can do that.
Post by Michael Cash
== GJカートリッジライター for GB伊次郎 V1.30 ==
= = GJ cartridge lighter/writer for GB Izirou V1.30 = = * Additional
function * Adding the upgrade performance of GJ card 16/64M BIOS to
the setting window, Retention: BIOS inside GJ card 16/64M is retained
in the file. Entry: BIOS is written to GJ card 16/64M. In GJ card
16/64M, you use when color multiple ROM is drawn up. * At our company
HP to download it can do the BIOS file for the color. * ROM file
information display functional addition It is possible to verify the
header information of the ROM image file. * Adding 0x278/0x3BC to
setting item of printer port address, Port address, it corresponded to
0x278/0x3BC. * In addition Plural the banks were used, trouble at the
time of RAM data access improvement the stability of correction
parallel port communication * About DLL "GJCWrite.exe", uses "MFC42.DLL
and MSVCRT.DLL". "The GJCWRITE.EXE file is linked to missing export
XXXXXXX", that, when it is indicated, to download "MFC42.DLL and
MSVCRT.DLL", please copy in the same folder as "GJCWrite.exe"


Incidently I've had a look at the program and these are my translation
notes so far.

ROM読込 => Cause program to crash without error message.
ROM書込 => Cause program to crash without error message.
RAM読込 => Cause program to crash without error message.
RAM書込 => Cause program to crash without error message.

It's good to see that the princple of redundancy is being upheld.

P.S. -> Chris. I hope your post in this thread was uninformative and
not funny - because my newsserver lost it.

P.P.S. -> Original Poster.
As a reward for reading all the way down to the end of my post I
shall proffer some useful advise.

1. Yours is the sort of request for which translators get paid
real money (albeit not a lot as there isn't much text involved).
Asking people to do it for free has a tendency to provoke sarcastic
responses.

2. Useful responses tend to be proportionate to the amount of
effort put in by the person asking for help. A start might
be
- Explaining what the program is and why you need it translated.
- Putting up a webpage with images of the dialog / buttons etc
for the convenience of those who a) Don't have Windows or
b) Don't run strange programs off the web.

3. If this is a free add-on to a commercial product you have
purchased you could always try emailing the (Japanese) company
in question. You never know, you might get lucky.
Travers Naran
2003-11-16 17:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Blay
1. Yours is the sort of request for which translators get paid
real money (albeit not a lot as there isn't much text involved).
Asking people to do it for free has a tendency to provoke sarcastic
responses.
Or getting amateurs to try their hands at it. :-)

Hey, I need the practice!
Post by Paul Blay
2. Useful responses tend to be proportionate to the amount of
effort put in by the person asking for help. A start might
be
- Explaining what the program is and why you need it translated.
- Putting up a webpage with images of the dialog / buttons etc
for the convenience of those who a) Don't have Windows or
b) Don't run strange programs off the web.
That is the more important thing. I get 50+ copies of worms per day in
my e-mail. I ain't running a strange program off the web without
knowing a lot more about it or even who sent it.
Post by Paul Blay
3. If this is a free add-on to a commercial product you have
purchased you could always try emailing the (Japanese) company
in question. You never know, you might get lucky.
What if the company doesn't have anyone who can read/write English? I
know, I know... that hasn't stopped game companies before: "All your
base are belong to us" and all. ;-)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
Canada, Earth, Milky Way, etc. | <www.geocities.com/naran500/>
"Stand Back! I'm a programmer!" |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Kern
2003-11-16 08:53:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Please help me! I don't know japanese, and online translators can't
translate programs...if you can, please clearly state what each box
and option does here. I really need this and would greatly appreciate
it!
Why do you *need* this? Can't you just go buy the games yourself or
play the illegal copies on your computer?

-Chris
j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
2003-11-16 09:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Please help me! I don't know japanese, and online translators can't
translate programs...if you can, please clearly state what each box
and option does here. I really need this and would greatly appreciate
it!
Sure. I'm sending details of my PayPal account and my charge rate
to the above address. Once I have confirmation of your payment of
my minimim fee, I'll start on it.
No worries.
--
Jim Breen
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Computer Science & Software Engineering,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
archagon
2003-11-16 19:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Heh.Well, lessee...

1) I wasn't really expecting this to work. I know people don't do this
for free. But I have not lost the belief that there are a few good
people out there willing to do it...oh well. It's worth it just to see
a thread grow to 6 pages :P
2) I've already e-mailed the company. So far, no response.
3) I don't need this for illegal games. I plan to try out some
homemade ROMs on my GBC from the PDROMS competition.
4) I'd post screens, but my comp has no Japanese support. It's a
Windows ME machine, so I can't install it either.
Phil Healey
2003-11-16 19:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Heh.Well, lessee...
1) I wasn't really expecting this to work. I know people don't do this
for free. But I have not lost the belief that there are a few good
people out there willing to do it...oh well. It's worth it just to see
a thread grow to 6 pages :P
You're the greedy one here. On one side of the equation is a service
(translation) and on the other is money (payment). We are willing to
exchange service for money, but you want the service without living up
to your side of the bargain. We wouldn't be good if we translated it for
you, we'd be stupid.

Here's a counter-offer from my point of view:

Please help me! I'm lazy, and online philanthropists can't give me
money... If you can, please put $500 in my bank account. I really need
this and would greatly appreciate it!

Thank you so much.
Post by archagon
2) I've already e-mailed the company. So far, no response.
Greedy and naive.
Post by archagon
3) I don't need this for illegal games. I plan to try out some
homemade ROMs on my GBC from the PDROMS competition.
Greedy, naive, and misguided.
Post by archagon
4) I'd post screens, but my comp has no Japanese support. It's a
Windows ME machine, so I can't install it either.
Greedy, naive, misguided, and fucked.
necoandjeff
2003-11-16 19:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Healey
Please help me! I'm lazy, and online philanthropists can't give me
money... If you can, please put $500 in my bank account. I really need
this and would greatly appreciate it!
Hey Archagon (or other "good" people out there), I'd like $500 too please...

Jeff
archagon
2003-11-16 22:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Healey
Post by archagon
Heh.Well, lessee...
1) I wasn't really expecting this to work. I know people don't do this
for free. But I have not lost the belief that there are a few good
people out there willing to do it...oh well. It's worth it just to see
a thread grow to 6 pages :P
You're the greedy one here. On one side of the equation is a service
(translation) and on the other is money (payment). We are willing to
exchange service for money, but you want the service without living up
to your side of the bargain. We wouldn't be good if we translated it for
you, we'd be stupid.
Please help me! I'm lazy, and online philanthropists can't give me
money... If you can, please put $500 in my bank account. I really need
this and would greatly appreciate it!
Thank you so much.
Post by archagon
2) I've already e-mailed the company. So far, no response.
Greedy and naive.
Post by archagon
3) I don't need this for illegal games. I plan to try out some
homemade ROMs on my GBC from the PDROMS competition.
Greedy, naive, and misguided.
Post by archagon
4) I'd post screens, but my comp has no Japanese support. It's a
Windows ME machine, so I can't install it either.
Greedy, naive, misguided, and fucked.
You know what? Fuck you.

I'm not paying 500 dollars to translate a few words. There's not much
to the program, for crying out loud! You're too focused on the
commercialization of every single fucking service out there. And I
don't see how e-mailing the company is greedy.

Next time, if you have nothing valuable to say, keep your mouth shut.
Phil Healey
2003-11-16 23:41:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Post by Phil Healey
Post by archagon
I know people don't do this
for free. But I have not lost the belief that there are a few good
people out there willing to do it
Think about those three lines for a second. Now explain why you aren't
stupid.
Post by archagon
Post by Phil Healey
Greedy, naive, misguided, and fucked.
You know what? Fuck you.
Oh yeah? Well, fuck you.

Now we're on the same level.
Post by archagon
I'm not paying 500 dollars to translate a few words. There's not much
to the program, for crying out loud! You're too focused on the
commercialization of every single fucking service out there.
You're too focused on trying to get people to work for you for free, Mr.
Slave-Driver.
Post by archagon
And I
don't see how e-mailing the company is greedy.
It isn't. It's naive. (Let me add stupid to the list.) You're greedy
because you want to benefit from my services without compensating me for
them.

Economics may be complicated, but this isn't so hard to understand.
Asking me to do the translation for free is the same as asking me to
give you money out of my pocket.

It's very simple. By doing the translation for you for no pay, I would
be putting the money you would otherwise have had to pay for the
translation into your pocket. Where would that money be coming from? My
pocket, because while I was doing that translation for free, I could
have been doing a translation that I would have been paid for. So,
receiving no money for the translation would mean you get to keep money
you should otherwise be spending, while I lose money I would otherwise
have been earning (through translation work from a sane client).
Post by archagon
Next time, if you have nothing valuable to say, keep your mouth shut.
What I've been telling you is very valuable. You're a naive 13-year-old
who obviously knows nothing about the world. I'm teaching you a very
valuable lesson in economics. You tell me to fuck off. So be it. You
should be grateful I've taken the time to explain this to you.

And next time, if you have ludicrous business proposals, post them to
alt.jokes.business.
archagon
2003-11-17 06:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Healey
Post by archagon
Post by Phil Healey
Post by archagon
I know people don't do this
for free. But I have not lost the belief that there are a few good
people out there willing to do it
Think about those three lines for a second. Now explain why you aren't
stupid.
Post by archagon
Post by Phil Healey
Greedy, naive, misguided, and fucked.
You know what? Fuck you.
Oh yeah? Well, fuck you.
Now we're on the same level.
Post by archagon
I'm not paying 500 dollars to translate a few words. There's not much
to the program, for crying out loud! You're too focused on the
commercialization of every single fucking service out there.
You're too focused on trying to get people to work for you for free, Mr.
Slave-Driver.
Post by archagon
And I
don't see how e-mailing the company is greedy.
It isn't. It's naive. (Let me add stupid to the list.) You're greedy
because you want to benefit from my services without compensating me for
them.
Economics may be complicated, but this isn't so hard to understand.
Asking me to do the translation for free is the same as asking me to
give you money out of my pocket.
It's very simple. By doing the translation for you for no pay, I would
be putting the money you would otherwise have had to pay for the
translation into your pocket. Where would that money be coming from? My
pocket, because while I was doing that translation for free, I could
have been doing a translation that I would have been paid for. So,
receiving no money for the translation would mean you get to keep money
you should otherwise be spending, while I lose money I would otherwise
have been earning (through translation work from a sane client).
Post by archagon
Next time, if you have nothing valuable to say, keep your mouth shut.
What I've been telling you is very valuable. You're a naive 13-year-old
who obviously knows nothing about the world. I'm teaching you a very
valuable lesson in economics. You tell me to fuck off. So be it. You
should be grateful I've taken the time to explain this to you.
And next time, if you have ludicrous business proposals, post them to
alt.jokes.business.
Heh. Lesse...one, I never asked you to translate anything. You see an
unfair request and you jump on it, tearing it to shreds. Sure I'm
wrong. Fine. I learned my lesson. But I personally don't see how
insulting me will help. You're just infused with a selfish sense of
superiority to twist my words around your finger. Your anger seeps
through the cracks in your scentences into the limelight. I don't see
how it helps you or me. Whatever happened to nice people? Must be a
dying breed.

Two, this very same rage makes you accuse me of being a "naive
13-year-old" and then makes you say that you're "teaching [me] a very
valuable lesson in economics". Once again, the selfish streak of
superiority comes into play as you raise yourself above the level of
everybody else and supposedly "pass on your knowledge" to someone of
lesser intelligence. Shame.

Three, you tell me to post in jokes. Hey, I didn't know translating a
few words in Japanese was so hard! I'm so very sorry.

The internet was originally a place designed to share knowledge and
communicate. If it's hard to post the meanings of a scentence or two
without being paid, then I guess everyone really is a moron (sure,
including myself).

Next time, try to offer some USEFUL advice instead of pouncing on me.
Phil Healey
2003-11-17 07:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Heh. Lesse...one, I never asked you to translate anything. You see an
unfair request and you jump on it, tearing it to shreds. Sure I'm
wrong. Fine. I learned my lesson.
That's brave of you to admit.
Post by archagon
But I personally don't see how
insulting me will help. You're just infused with a selfish sense of
superiority to twist my words around your finger. Your anger seeps
through the cracks in your scentences into the limelight. I don't see
how it helps you or me.
I'm not angry.
Post by archagon
Whatever happened to nice people? Must be a
dying breed.
They're over in alt.naive.nice
Post by archagon
Two, this very same rage makes you accuse me of being a "naive
13-year-old" and then makes you say that you're "teaching [me] a very
valuable lesson in economics". Once again, the selfish streak of
superiority comes into play as you raise yourself above the level of
everybody else and supposedly "pass on your knowledge" to someone of
lesser intelligence. Shame.
Okay. I'll stick to passing on my knowledge to smarter people.
Post by archagon
Three, you tell me to post in jokes. Hey, I didn't know translating a
few words in Japanese was so hard! I'm so very sorry.
You're the one who couldn't translate them.
Post by archagon
The internet was originally a place designed to share knowledge and
communicate. If it's hard to post the meanings of a scentence or two
without being paid, then I guess everyone really is a moron (sure,
including myself).
I have a feeling you're new to usenet. So I'm going to pass on some more
knowledge to you. There are ways of asking people to do favors that get
results, but you didn't use any of them. You jumped in, demanded a
translation with a lot of exclamation marks, and offered nothing in
return. If you really wanted a response, this is what you should have
done: 1) Try everything you can before asking. Comb the MS website for
Jpz support for ME, Google for existing translations of what you wanted
needed, etc. 2) Once you have exhausted all those possibilities, start
your post by telling us what you tried, what the results were, and why
they are unsatisfactory. It sounds like your biggest problem is not
knowing how to display Japanese on your computer. You should've focused
on that first, because without that you can't even try to translate the
page yourself. You'll notice that someone suggested that it was possible
to display Japanese on ME. If you hadn't alienated everyone here with
your attitude, he might've been more helpful. Notice how he mentioned
something like "at least he would've had to do some work." Remember the
something-for-nothing conundrum I mentioned before? Here it is, raising
its ugly head again. And he didn't even want money for his advice. It's
just pathetic to watch people demand help when they won't try anything
themselves first.

But I digress. Once you had gone through all that, then you should've
attempted a translation, no matter how bad or inept, and posted the
results. No one on this newsgroup has ever been laughed at or yelled at
for attempting a translation. After that, someone would've pointed out
where you were going wrong and corrected you. That way you would've
learned something.

You see? If there's no learning going on, pretty much no one here will
have any interest in the thread except to flame the fool who started it.

So you say we're not nice. We're not, if that means being dumb enough to
do something for nothing. But we do help people who help themselves.
That's true for all usenet groups, for the most part.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

The site is mainly geared towards hackers, but the principles are the same.

Now go learn something.
archagon
2003-11-17 19:27:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Healey
Post by archagon
Heh. Lesse...one, I never asked you to translate anything. You see an
unfair request and you jump on it, tearing it to shreds. Sure I'm
wrong. Fine. I learned my lesson.
That's brave of you to admit.
Post by archagon
But I personally don't see how
insulting me will help. You're just infused with a selfish sense of
superiority to twist my words around your finger. Your anger seeps
through the cracks in your scentences into the limelight. I don't see
how it helps you or me.
I'm not angry.
Post by archagon
Whatever happened to nice people? Must be a
dying breed.
They're over in alt.naive.nice
Post by archagon
Two, this very same rage makes you accuse me of being a "naive
13-year-old" and then makes you say that you're "teaching [me] a very
valuable lesson in economics". Once again, the selfish streak of
superiority comes into play as you raise yourself above the level of
everybody else and supposedly "pass on your knowledge" to someone of
lesser intelligence. Shame.
Okay. I'll stick to passing on my knowledge to smarter people.
Post by archagon
Three, you tell me to post in jokes. Hey, I didn't know translating a
few words in Japanese was so hard! I'm so very sorry.
You're the one who couldn't translate them.
Post by archagon
The internet was originally a place designed to share knowledge and
communicate. If it's hard to post the meanings of a scentence or two
without being paid, then I guess everyone really is a moron (sure,
including myself).
I have a feeling you're new to usenet. So I'm going to pass on some more
knowledge to you. There are ways of asking people to do favors that get
results, but you didn't use any of them. You jumped in, demanded a
translation with a lot of exclamation marks, and offered nothing in
return. If you really wanted a response, this is what you should have
done: 1) Try everything you can before asking. Comb the MS website for
Jpz support for ME, Google for existing translations of what you wanted
needed, etc. 2) Once you have exhausted all those possibilities, start
your post by telling us what you tried, what the results were, and why
they are unsatisfactory. It sounds like your biggest problem is not
knowing how to display Japanese on your computer. You should've focused
on that first, because without that you can't even try to translate the
page yourself. You'll notice that someone suggested that it was possible
to display Japanese on ME. If you hadn't alienated everyone here with
your attitude, he might've been more helpful. Notice how he mentioned
something like "at least he would've had to do some work." Remember the
something-for-nothing conundrum I mentioned before? Here it is, raising
its ugly head again. And he didn't even want money for his advice. It's
just pathetic to watch people demand help when they won't try anything
themselves first.
But I digress. Once you had gone through all that, then you should've
attempted a translation, no matter how bad or inept, and posted the
results. No one on this newsgroup has ever been laughed at or yelled at
for attempting a translation. After that, someone would've pointed out
where you were going wrong and corrected you. That way you would've
learned something.
You see? If there's no learning going on, pretty much no one here will
have any interest in the thread except to flame the fool who started it.
So you say we're not nice. We're not, if that means being dumb enough to
do something for nothing. But we do help people who help themselves.
That's true for all usenet groups, for the most part.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
The site is mainly geared towards hackers, but the principles are the same.
Now go learn something.
Alright, so I admit that I'm wrong in many of these cases. Yes, I am
new to USENET in that I have never posted a request before. However, I
have indeed tried to install the Global packs and everything in my
power to make the program show up the text. It didn't. How on earth am
I supposed to translate "_____"? And indeed I combed all over the
internet for a translation. But this program is very rare to find - I
only found a mention of it on 5 sites or so. And pathetic is only your
opinion, shared perhaps by a few others. It doesn't mean you are
automatically correct. Now, what you could have done is stated that
last paragraph in the beginning. Instead, you resorted to calling me
adjectives which are offensive to me, fueled, indeed, by anger, as you
admit, for such "pathetic requests". I tried everything, although I
failed to mention it. I suppose that's my mistake.

And if publicly humiliating me is your way of teaching me a lesson,
then it is you who needs to learn up a little - on behavior. Although
nobody gives a fuck anymore, ethics are still important. Besides, not
everybody here is an asshole - some people actually offered some
helpful tips.

Now go and "pass on your knowledge to smarter people".
Phil Healey
2003-11-17 20:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Alright, so I admit that I'm wrong in many of these cases. Yes, I am
new to USENET in that I have never posted a request before. However, I
have indeed tried to install the Global packs and everything in my
power to make the program show up the text. It didn't. How on earth am
I supposed to translate "_____"? And indeed I combed all over the
internet for a translation. But this program is very rare to find - I
only found a mention of it on 5 sites or so. And pathetic is only your
opinion, shared perhaps by a few others. It doesn't mean you are
automatically correct. Now, what you could have done is stated that
last paragraph in the beginning. Instead, you resorted to calling me
adjectives which are offensive to me, fueled, indeed, by anger, as you
admit, for such "pathetic requests". I tried everything, although I
failed to mention it. I suppose that's my mistake.
And if publicly humiliating me is your way of teaching me a lesson,
then it is you who needs to learn up a little - on behavior. Although
nobody gives a fuck anymore, ethics are still important. Besides, not
everybody here is an asshole - some people actually offered some
helpful tips.
Now go and "pass on your knowledge to smarter people".
Welcome to Usenet.
archagon
2003-11-19 23:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Healey
Post by archagon
Alright, so I admit that I'm wrong in many of these cases. Yes, I am
new to USENET in that I have never posted a request before. However, I
have indeed tried to install the Global packs and everything in my
power to make the program show up the text. It didn't. How on earth am
I supposed to translate "_____"? And indeed I combed all over the
internet for a translation. But this program is very rare to find - I
only found a mention of it on 5 sites or so. And pathetic is only your
opinion, shared perhaps by a few others. It doesn't mean you are
automatically correct. Now, what you could have done is stated that
last paragraph in the beginning. Instead, you resorted to calling me
adjectives which are offensive to me, fueled, indeed, by anger, as you
admit, for such "pathetic requests". I tried everything, although I
failed to mention it. I suppose that's my mistake.
And if publicly humiliating me is your way of teaching me a lesson,
then it is you who needs to learn up a little - on behavior. Although
nobody gives a fuck anymore, ethics are still important. Besides, not
everybody here is an asshole - some people actually offered some
helpful tips.
Now go and "pass on your knowledge to smarter people".
Welcome to Usenet.
*wants to win arguement*

Damn.
necoandjeff
2003-11-17 20:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Alright, so I admit that I'm wrong in many of these cases. Yes, I am
new to USENET in that I have never posted a request before. However, I
have indeed tried to install the Global packs and everything in my
power to make the program show up the text. It didn't. How on earth am
I supposed to translate "_____"? And indeed I combed all over the
internet for a translation. But this program is very rare to find - I
only found a mention of it on 5 sites or so. And pathetic is only your
opinion, shared perhaps by a few others. It doesn't mean you are
automatically correct. Now, what you could have done is stated that
last paragraph in the beginning. Instead, you resorted to calling me
adjectives which are offensive to me, fueled, indeed, by anger, as you
admit, for such "pathetic requests". I tried everything, although I
failed to mention it. I suppose that's my mistake.
And if publicly humiliating me is your way of teaching me a lesson,
then it is you who needs to learn up a little - on behavior. Although
nobody gives a fuck anymore, ethics are still important. Besides, not
everybody here is an asshole - some people actually offered some
helpful tips.
The pleas of several thousand newbies who have come before you have failed
to change the way the system works. One more plea for people to "be nice"
probably won't make much of a difference. Best thing to do is get over it
and move on. You only have to go through this once anyway and if you are
interested in learning Japanese, alienating the people on this NG
(including, and perhaps especially, Phil) would be one of your worst
mistakes.

Jeff
Louise Bremner
2003-11-17 00:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
You know what? Fuck you.
Congrats, Phil--you got the message across.

________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Phil Healey
2003-11-17 03:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louise Bremner
Post by archagon
You know what? Fuck you.
Congrats, Phil--you got the message across.
<*high five*>
Anthony J. Bryant
2003-11-17 06:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
You know what? Fuck you.
I'm not paying 500 dollars to translate a few words. There's not much
to the program, for crying out loud! You're too focused on the
commercialization of every single fucking service out there. And I
don't see how e-mailing the company is greedy.
Next time, if you have nothing valuable to say, keep your mouth shut.
Ah, another graduate of the Dale Carnegie "How to Win Friends and Influence
People" sessions.


Tony
Kevin Wayne Williams
2003-11-16 20:12:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
4) I'd post screens, but my comp has no Japanese support. It's a
Windows ME machine, so I can't install it either.
私のパソコンはWindows MEの英語版です。
KWW
Brandon Berg
2003-11-16 20:48:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
4) I'd post screens, but my comp has no Japanese support. It's a
Windows ME machine, so I can't install it either.
$B;d$N%Q%=%3%s$O(BWindows ME$B$N1Q8lHG$G$9!#(B
Can Windows ME be modified to allow Japanese programs to be run? I know that
there are certain applications that allow you to read and write Japanese
text, but if you try and run a Japanese program not specifically designed to
function on English Windows, you just get garbage text, don't you?
Kevin Wayne Williams
2003-11-16 20:58:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brandon Berg
Post by Kevin Wayne Williams
Post by archagon
4) I'd post screens, but my comp has no Japanese support. It's a
Windows ME machine, so I can't install it either.
私のパソコンはWindows MEの英語版です。
Can Windows ME be modified to allow Japanese programs to be run? I know that
there are certain applications that allow you to read and write Japanese
text, but if you try and run a Japanese program not specifically designed to
function on English Windows, you just get garbage text, don't you?
I've never bothered, but yes, there are third party applications that
intercept the Windows calls and do the work to handle the Japanese
display. Windows ME is just Windows 98 with more bugs, so there are a
lot of applications out there to help..

KWW
Travers Naran
2003-11-16 21:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brandon Berg
Post by Kevin Wayne Williams
Post by archagon
4) I'd post screens, but my comp has no Japanese support. It's a
Windows ME machine, so I can't install it either.
私のパソコンはWindows MEの英語版です。
Can Windows ME be modified to allow Japanese programs to be run? I know that
there are certain applications that allow you to read and write Japanese
text, but if you try and run a Japanese program not specifically designed to
function on English Windows, you just get garbage text, don't you?
It depends on the underlying encoding scheme the application uses. If
it's a UNICODE application, then it's not a problem. If it's JIS or
S-JIS, it may be very hit or miss. I know for Windows 98, most of the
older encoding pages simply don't work with some application, but all
the UNICODE ones do.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
Canada, Earth, Milky Way, etc. | <www.geocities.com/naran500/>
"Stand Back! I'm a programmer!" |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran
2003-11-16 20:59:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin Wayne Williams
Post by archagon
4) I'd post screens, but my comp has no Japanese support. It's a
Windows ME machine, so I can't install it either.
私のパソコンはWindows MEの英語版です。
What KWW is trying to say, Archagon, is go to the Microsoft website and
download the "Global IME" (you can type that phrase in their download
search engine) and install it. Everything will work after that. My
version of Windows 98 is the usual Canadian OEM edition, but I've mostly
been able to get Japanese support working. At the very least, you can
see the Japanese characters now.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
Canada, Earth, Milky Way, etc. | <www.geocities.com/naran500/>
"Stand Back! I'm a programmer!" |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Cash
2003-11-16 21:34:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by Kevin Wayne Williams
Post by archagon
4) I'd post screens, but my comp has no Japanese support. It's a
Windows ME machine, so I can't install it either.
私のパソコンはWindows MEの英語版です。
What KWW is trying to say, Archagon, is go to the Microsoft website and
download the "Global IME" (you can type that phrase in their download
search engine) and install it. Everything will work after that. My
version of Windows 98 is the usual Canadian OEM edition, but I've mostly
been able to get Japanese support working. At the very least, you can
see the Japanese characters now.
But that won't solve anything. He'll still want us to tell him what
they say.
Travers Naran
2003-11-16 23:17:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Cash
Post by Travers Naran
What KWW is trying to say, Archagon, is go to the Microsoft website and
download the "Global IME" (you can type that phrase in their download
search engine) and install it. Everything will work after that. My
version of Windows 98 is the usual Canadian OEM edition, but I've mostly
been able to get Japanese support working. At the very least, you can
see the Japanese characters now.
But that won't solve anything. He'll still want us to tell him what
they say.
But at least this way he has to do some work. ;-)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
Canada, Earth, Milky Way, etc. | <www.geocities.com/naran500/>
"Stand Back! I'm a programmer!" |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
archagon
2003-11-17 06:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by Michael Cash
Post by Travers Naran
What KWW is trying to say, Archagon, is go to the Microsoft website and
download the "Global IME" (you can type that phrase in their download
search engine) and install it. Everything will work after that. My
version of Windows 98 is the usual Canadian OEM edition, but I've mostly
been able to get Japanese support working. At the very least, you can
see the Japanese characters now.
But that won't solve anything. He'll still want us to tell him what
they say.
But at least this way he has to do some work. ;-)
Thanks. However, I read somewhere that it only works for a few
programs and not everything. I tried it and the program still won't
display Jap characters.

And come on! I just wanted some help.
necoandjeff
2003-11-17 07:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
display Jap characters.
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?

Jeff
Brandon Berg
2003-11-17 07:37:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by necoandjeff
Post by archagon
display Jap characters.
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?
Lazy, maybe, but no more offensive than Yank, Aussie, Brit, or Merkin.
Perhaps even less so, since it refers to glyphs, rather than people.
j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
2003-11-17 09:13:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brandon Berg
Post by necoandjeff
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?
Lazy, maybe, but no more offensive than Yank, Aussie, Brit, or Merkin.
AFAIK neither Aussie nor Brit is offensive in the slightest. They're the
*polite* terms. Terms like Wop, Frog, Chink, etc. are more at the Jap/Nip
level.
--
Jim Breen
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Computer Science & Software Engineering,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Chris Kern
2003-11-17 09:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
Post by Brandon Berg
Post by necoandjeff
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?
Lazy, maybe, but no more offensive than Yank, Aussie, Brit, or Merkin.
AFAIK neither Aussie nor Brit is offensive in the slightest. They're the
*polite* terms. Terms like Wop, Frog, Chink, etc. are more at the Jap/Nip
level.
Well, this is a reoccuring debate on various Japanese boards
(including this one). Some people (usually British people, so maybe
there's a pondian difference) claim that "Jap" is no more offensive
than "Brit" or "Aussie" (i.e. basically it isn't offensive at all),
while others claim that "Jap" is more along the line of racial slurs
like the ones you mention.

Generally people seem to agree that one should not refer to Japanese
people as "japs" -- what never seems to be agreed upon is whether it's
OK to use "jap" as an abbreviation for Japanese when it does not refer
to people (i.e. "the jap version of the game", "a jap-eng dictionary",
"jap lang courses at my college").

-Chris
Paul Blay
2003-11-17 10:48:15 UTC
Permalink
"Chris Kern" wrote on the subject that ever undying lies ...
Post by Chris Kern
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
AFAIK neither Aussie nor Brit is offensive in the slightest. They're the
*polite* terms. Terms like Wop, Frog, Chink, etc. are more at the Jap/Nip
level.
Well, this is a reoccuring debate on various Japanese boards
(including this one).
We R board? I thot this waz chat machine.
Post by Chris Kern
Some people (usually British people, so maybe
there's a pondian difference)
Not that I know of. Possibly the US has a greater awareness of the
issue and / or latent guilt thanks to certain actions in WW2 concerning
Japanese resident in America.
Post by Chris Kern
claim that "Jap" is no more offensive
than "Brit" or "Aussie" (i.e. basically it isn't offensive at all),
while others claim that "Jap" is more along the line of racial slurs
like the ones you mention.
Generally people seem to agree that one should not refer to Japanese
people as "japs" -- what never seems to be agreed upon is whether it's
OK to use "jap" as an abbreviation for Japanese when it does not refer
to people (i.e. "the jap version of the game", "a jap-eng dictionary",
"jap lang courses at my college").
The most technical version I heard was "It's OK as long as it's got a . to
make it clear it's an abbreviation. Most situations J or jpn will do the trick.
Don Kirkman
2003-11-17 21:47:57 UTC
Permalink
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Paul Blay wrote in article
Post by Paul Blay
"Chris Kern" wrote on the subject that ever undying lies ...
Post by Chris Kern
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
AFAIK neither Aussie nor Brit is offensive in the slightest. They're the
*polite* terms. Terms like Wop, Frog, Chink, etc. are more at the Jap/Nip
level.
Well, this is a reoccuring debate on various Japanese boards
(including this one).
We R board? I thot this waz chat machine.
Post by Chris Kern
Some people (usually British people, so maybe
there's a pondian difference)
Not that I know of. Possibly the US has a greater awareness of the
issue and / or latent guilt thanks to certain actions in WW2 concerning
Japanese resident in America.
Even more so because 70% of them were US-born American citizens who were
denied many of their rights. The non-citizen Issei were already aging
pretty much, since legal immigration ended in 1924.
--
Don
Old age is when you start saying "I wish I knew now what I knew then."
Ross Klatte
2003-11-17 23:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Date: 2003-11-17 16:47 Eastern Standard Time
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Paul Blay wrote in article
Post by Paul Blay
"Chris Kern" wrote on the subject that ever undying lies ...
Post by Chris Kern
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
AFAIK neither Aussie nor Brit is offensive in the slightest. They're the
*polite* terms. Terms like Wop, Frog, Chink, etc. are more at the Jap/Nip
level.
Well, this is a reoccuring debate on various Japanese boards
(including this one).
We R board? I thot this waz chat machine.
Post by Chris Kern
Some people (usually British people, so maybe
there's a pondian difference)
Not that I know of. Possibly the US has a greater awareness of the
issue and / or latent guilt thanks to certain actions in WW2 concerning
Japanese resident in America.
Even more so because 70% of them were US-born American citizens who were
denied many of their rights. The non-citizen Issei were already aging
pretty much, since legal immigration ended in 1924.
--
I don't think much of the argument that guilt feelings about
the California Relocation generated the stronger disapproval
of ethnic slur words in America. The rise of anti-racism
as mainstream thought in America was fairly slow, extending
from about 1943 through about 1973. The ideas dealt primarily
with the status of Jews and Negroes. It was only after about
1960 that the general trend against racism began to
include other groups. There was little guilt about the
Relocation at the time. You probably remember that the
American Civil Liberties Union supported the concentration
camps because the Japanese were racial enemies.

The fact that anti-racism is stronger in America than in
England or Australia is because there is a lot more
racial diversity in America than in England or Australia.
It has nothing to do with philosophical superiority.


Ross
Roebuck, South Carolina
http://community.webshots.com/user/ross_klatte
http://www.geocities.com/sparklecitysue/
http://www.savethescv.org/NC%20Division.htm
j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
2003-11-18 00:24:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Klatte
The fact that anti-racism is stronger in America than in
England or Australia
It is? What metrics are you using the measure the relative
strengths of "anti-racism"? And what data are you using in
applying those metrics? (*)
Post by Ross Klatte
is because there is a lot more
racial diversity in America than in England or Australia.
There is? Again, what metrics and measures are you using to
reach this conclusion?

(*) On one measure at least; the outlawing of racist publication and
speech, both the UK and Australia, which do not have an equivalent of the
"abridging the freedom of speech" clause in the US first amendment, are
much "stronger" than the US.
--
Jim Breen
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Computer Science & Software Engineering,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
necoandjeff
2003-11-18 00:40:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
(*) On one measure at least; the outlawing of racist publication and
speech, both the UK and Australia, which do not have an equivalent of the
"abridging the freedom of speech" clause in the US first amendment, are
much "stronger" than the US.
There have been vigorous discussions among ISSHO Kikaku regarding the
propriety of supporting a law outlawing racist speech in Japan. The lines
are generally drawn between Europeans, for whom such laws are customary, and
Americans (including myself) who simply cannot reconcile support of such a
law (no matter how well intentioned) with the principles of freedom of
speech that are embodied in both the U.S. and Japanese constitutions. I
opposed it not only on ideological grounds but on practical ones as well
since passing a law that would likely be considered unconstitutional is the
same as not passing it at all. I don't recall Australians in the discussion
but presumably they too would support such a law, or at least not oppose it
so vigorously, at least to the extent that you can generalize something like
this based on nationality alone.

Jeff
j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
2003-11-18 02:17:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by necoandjeff
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
(*) On one measure at least; the outlawing of racist publication and
speech, both the UK and Australia, which do not have an equivalent of the
"abridging the freedom of speech" clause in the US first amendment, are
much "stronger" than the US.
There have been vigorous discussions among ISSHO Kikaku regarding the
propriety of supporting a law outlawing racist speech in Japan. The lines
are generally drawn between Europeans, for whom such laws are customary, and
Americans (including myself) who simply cannot reconcile support of such a
law (no matter how well intentioned) with the principles of freedom of
speech that are embodied in both the U.S. and Japanese constitutions. I
opposed it not only on ideological grounds but on practical ones as well
since passing a law that would likely be considered unconstitutional is the
same as not passing it at all.
I recall those ISSHO discussions well. I'm not sure how relevant this is. I
am well aware of both the differences of position between the US and a
number of other countries on this, and the underlying reasons. It still
remains that on one criterion, albeit a not very strong one, the US does
not rate as being particularly "anti-racist".
Post by necoandjeff
I don't recall Australians in the discussion
I did participate, and at least one other Australian did. (He works in
Japan, so his nationality was probably not evident.)
Post by necoandjeff
but presumably they too would support such a law, or at least not oppose it
so vigorously, at least to the extent that you can generalize something like
this based on nationality alone.
Well, since you can't, or at least shouldn't, generalize on the basis of
nationality alone, I think your presumption is unfounded. While we do have
laws against racist publication and speech, the support for these laws is
far from universal.
--
Jim Breen
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Computer Science & Software Engineering,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
necoandjeff
2003-11-18 02:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
Post by necoandjeff
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
(*) On one measure at least; the outlawing of racist publication and
speech, both the UK and Australia, which do not have an equivalent of the
"abridging the freedom of speech" clause in the US first amendment, are
much "stronger" than the US.
There have been vigorous discussions among ISSHO Kikaku regarding the
propriety of supporting a law outlawing racist speech in Japan. The lines
are generally drawn between Europeans, for whom such laws are customary, and
Americans (including myself) who simply cannot reconcile support of such a
law (no matter how well intentioned) with the principles of freedom of
speech that are embodied in both the U.S. and Japanese constitutions. I
opposed it not only on ideological grounds but on practical ones as well
since passing a law that would likely be considered unconstitutional is the
same as not passing it at all.
I recall those ISSHO discussions well. I'm not sure how relevant this is. I
am well aware of both the differences of position between the US and a
number of other countries on this, and the underlying reasons. It still
remains that on one criterion, albeit a not very strong one, the US does
not rate as being particularly "anti-racist".
It is relevant because I don't think your assertion is a valid one at all,
unless you intend to measure a society's distaste for something merely on
whether it is legal or not. The reason it isn't a law is that we simply have
bigger legal fish to fry (freedom of speech.) It is not at all an indication
of how "anti-racist" we are as a society, nor is it a measure of how
distasteful hate speech would be to the average American, despite the lack
of a law against it. In fact, one could argue that the lack of legal
protections against it would actually strengthen society's perception of its
potential danger resulting in even stronger distaste among the public (i.e.
more "anti-racism" vigilance) as the only means of protecting against its
proliferation.
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
Post by necoandjeff
I don't recall Australians in the discussion
I did participate, and at least one other Australian did. (He works in
Japan, so his nationality was probably not evident.)
Post by necoandjeff
but presumably they too would support such a law, or at least not oppose it
so vigorously, at least to the extent that you can generalize something like
this based on nationality alone.
Well, since you can't, or at least shouldn't, generalize on the basis of
nationality alone, I think your presumption is unfounded. While we do have
laws against racist publication and speech, the support for these laws is
far from universal.
There is nothing wrong with attempting a generalization as long as it is
noted and treated as such (which I clearly did.) People generally only get
themselves into trouble when they attempt to apply their generalizations to
a specific individual. And you don't mean to assert that a generalization is
only valid if it is universal do you? That would be a law not a
generalization.

Jeff
j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
2003-11-18 03:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by necoandjeff
It is relevant because I don't think your assertion is a valid one at all,
unless you intend to measure a society's distaste for something merely on
whether it is legal or not.
It's usually not a bad measure.
Post by necoandjeff
The reason it isn't a law is that we simply have
bigger legal fish to fry (freedom of speech.) It is not at all an indication
of how "anti-racist" we are as a society, nor is it a measure of how
distasteful hate speech would be to the average American, despite the lack
of a law against it. In fact, one could argue that the lack of legal
protections against it would actually strengthen society's perception of its
potential danger resulting in even stronger distaste among the public (i.e.
more "anti-racism" vigilance) as the only means of protecting against its
proliferation.
Oh, I accept all this; in fact I am quite comfortable with the position
in the US. Recall I was trying to tease out quantification of Ross's
assertion (the only assertion so far, BTW) that "anti-racism is stronger in
America than in England or Australia". Such an assertion should be able
to be measured somehow, or it falls over. On one measure at least, the US
doesn't come over as very strong at all. All right, there are very good
reasons for that. Fine. I hope Ross or someone comes up with other
valid measures, or his assertion will be a bit limp.
--
Jim Breen
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Computer Science & Software Engineering,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
necoandjeff
2003-11-18 04:03:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
Post by necoandjeff
It is relevant because I don't think your assertion is a valid one at all,
unless you intend to measure a society's distaste for something merely on
whether it is legal or not.
It's usually not a bad measure.
Post by necoandjeff
The reason it isn't a law is that we simply have
bigger legal fish to fry (freedom of speech.) It is not at all an indication
of how "anti-racist" we are as a society, nor is it a measure of how
distasteful hate speech would be to the average American, despite the lack
of a law against it. In fact, one could argue that the lack of legal
protections against it would actually strengthen society's perception of its
potential danger resulting in even stronger distaste among the public (i.e.
more "anti-racism" vigilance) as the only means of protecting against its
proliferation.
Oh, I accept all this; in fact I am quite comfortable with the position
in the US. Recall I was trying to tease out quantification of Ross's
assertion (the only assertion so far, BTW) that "anti-racism is stronger in
America than in England or Australia". Such an assertion should be able
to be measured somehow, or it falls over. On one measure at least, the US
doesn't come over as very strong at all. All right, there are very good
reasons for that. Fine. I hope Ross or someone comes up with other
valid measures, or his assertion will be a bit limp.
And I agree that, at the very least, his assertion is quite difficult to
measure (and was almost certainly based on gut feeling which is nothing on
which to base assertions of fact.) But that doesn't mean that it is ok to
toss out other measures, for which there are other "very good reasons," as
you put it, to counter such an assertion. That was my only point.

Jeff
Dale Walker
2003-11-18 04:39:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Klatte
Date: 2003-11-17 16:47 Eastern Standard Time
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Paul Blay wrote in article
Post by Paul Blay
"Chris Kern" wrote on the subject that ever undying lies ...
Post by Chris Kern
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
AFAIK neither Aussie nor Brit is offensive in the slightest. They're the
*polite* terms. Terms like Wop, Frog, Chink, etc. are more at the Jap/Nip
level.
Well, this is a reoccuring debate on various Japanese boards
(including this one).
We R board? I thot this waz chat machine.
Post by Chris Kern
Some people (usually British people, so maybe
there's a pondian difference)
Not that I know of. Possibly the US has a greater awareness of the
issue and / or latent guilt thanks to certain actions in WW2 concerning
Japanese resident in America.
Even more so because 70% of them were US-born American citizens who were
denied many of their rights. The non-citizen Issei were already aging
pretty much, since legal immigration ended in 1924.
--
I don't think much of the argument that guilt feelings about
the California Relocation generated the stronger disapproval
of ethnic slur words in America. The rise of anti-racism
as mainstream thought in America was fairly slow, extending
from about 1943 through about 1973. The ideas dealt primarily
with the status of Jews and Negroes. It was only after about
1960 that the general trend against racism began to
include other groups. There was little guilt about the
Relocation at the time. You probably remember that the
American Civil Liberties Union supported the concentration
camps because the Japanese were racial enemies.
The fact that anti-racism is stronger in America than in
England or Australia is because there is a lot more
racial diversity in America than in England or Australia.
It has nothing to do with philosophical superiority.
Hmm. Not sure if you right about anti-rascism being stronger in the US
than the UK. There's may be more racial diversity in the US than the
UK (although I know some people that would questions that) but it's
far less integrated with much more people clumping together into
distinct communities. I believe the UK generally has a much more
homogeneous mix than the US with people much more likely to live, work
& play amongst each other.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Dale Walker London Techno Events Saiko!
***@sorted.org ***@sorted.org ***@sorted.org
London, UK london.sorted.org saiko.sorted.org
Don Kirkman
2003-11-18 22:26:57 UTC
Permalink
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Ross Klatte wrote in article
Post by Ross Klatte
Date: 2003-11-17 16:47 Eastern Standard Time
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Paul Blay wrote in article
[...]
Post by Ross Klatte
Post by Paul Blay
Not that I know of. Possibly the US has a greater awareness of the
issue and / or latent guilt thanks to certain actions in WW2 concerning
Japanese resident in America.
Even more so because 70% of them were US-born American citizens who were
denied many of their rights. The non-citizen Issei were already aging
pretty much, since legal immigration ended in 1924.
I don't think much of the argument that guilt feelings about
the California Relocation generated the stronger disapproval
of ethnic slur words in America.
I wasn't making that argument. I was pointing out that abusing your own
citizens is a worse offense than abusing (rather elderly) citizens of an
enemy country. The only ethnic slur word I had in mind was "Jap," and
the wartime experience is precisely where the general public began to
see it for what it was.
Post by Ross Klatte
The rise of anti-racism
as mainstream thought in America was fairly slow, extending
from about 1943 through about 1973. The ideas dealt primarily
with the status of Jews and Negroes. It was only after about
1960 that the general trend against racism began to
include other groups. There was little guilt about the
Relocation at the time. You probably remember that the
American Civil Liberties Union supported the concentration
camps because the Japanese were racial enemies.
Yes, the national ACLU held that the war powers of the President
encompassed the evacuation. But much of the legal work defending those
arrested at the beginning of the evacuation was by the ACLU. The ACLU
even posted Korematsu's bail following his arrest for violating curfew.
Later, some of the best pro-Nisei legal work relating to the internment
was done by individuals and regional offices of the ACLU,
notwithstanding the national policy. Wayne Collins, initially an ACLU
attorney, won restoration of citizenship rights for 6,000 Nisei who
according to court rulings had relinquished their citizenship under
duress.

There was quite a difference between the actions of the San Francisco
chapter of the ACLU and its staff, including Collins, and the actions
and policy at the national level.
Post by Ross Klatte
The fact that anti-racism is stronger in America than in
England or Australia is because there is a lot more
racial diversity in America than in England or Australia.
It has nothing to do with philosophical superiority.
This comment about philosophical superiority seems to be coming from
left field, but IIUC England and Australia both have rapidly increasing
racial diversity with less acrimony than has hampered US racial
relations.

I don't take lightly the Constitution's guarantees of freedom and
rights, and current judicial opinion seems to hold that the Supreme
Court erred badly in the Korematsu et. al. cases. BTW, Fred Korematsu,
now in his 80s, has testified recently in opposition to current
administration policies about rights to hearings and trials, adequate
counsel, and such things--he's been there, and he recognizes the
symptoms.
--
Don
Old age is when you start saying "I wish I knew now what I knew then."
Paul Blay
2003-11-18 22:37:01 UTC
Permalink
"Don Kirkman" wrote ...
Post by Don Kirkman
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Ross Klatte wrote in article
Post by Ross Klatte
Post by Don Kirkman
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Paul Blay wrote in article
Post by Paul Blay
Not that I know of. Possibly the US has a greater awareness of the
issue and / or latent guilt thanks to certain actions in WW2 concerning
Japanese resident in America.
Even more so because 70% of them were US-born American citizens who were
denied many of their rights. The non-citizen Issei were already aging
pretty much, since legal immigration ended in 1924.
I don't think much of the argument that guilt feelings about
the California Relocation generated the stronger disapproval
of ethnic slur words in America.
I wasn't making that argument.
I also was not making that argument.
Ross Klatte
2003-11-17 12:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Date: 2003-11-17 04:13 Eastern Standard Time
AFAIK neither Aussie nor Brit is offensive in the slightest. They're the
*polite* terms. Terms like Wop, Frog, Chink, etc. are more at the Jap/Nip
level.
Offensiveness comes from the heart of the offended one. If a person
believes he belongs to an inferior group, than any term whatsoever
which identifies him as a member of that group will quickly sound
offensive. Brockmin and untouchables, so long as they themselves
believe that they belong to an inferior group, will always be offended,
regardless of whether the term is Eta, or Dalek, or Serene Highness.

Japanese-of-Japan have a great deal more confidence than
Japanese-Americans. I found that Japanese-of-Japan who were
fluent in English were more or less indifferent to the term "Jap."
It is the Japanese-Americans who fire off the angry letters to
the editor about the use of the word "yellow," or "oriental," or
"nisei," or whatever word has set off their inferiority alarm.

I do not know enough English-speaking Frenchmen to judge, but
I suspect that a Frenchman would find it rather amusing to be
referred to as a "frog." Indeed, he would probably feel very
satisfied that he had not been misidentified as a kraut or a dago.

You will note that Canadians enjoy being called "Canucks."
What really tears them up is being called "Americans," as this
stabs right into their feelings of inferiority vis-a-vis America.


(Or is it "darling"?)


Ross
Roebuck, South Carolina
http://community.webshots.com/user/ross_klatte
http://www.geocities.com/sparklecitysue/
http://www.savethescv.org/NC%20Division.htm
Paul Blay
2003-11-17 12:29:32 UTC
Permalink
"Ross Klatte" wrote ...
Post by Ross Klatte
You will note that Canadians enjoy being called "Canucks."
What really tears them up is being called "Americans," as this
stabs right into their feelings of inferiority vis-a-vis America.
And they say Americans have no sense of irony.
j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
2003-11-17 22:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Blay
"Ross Klatte" wrote ...
Post by Ross Klatte
You will note that Canadians enjoy being called "Canucks."
What really tears them up is being called "Americans," as this
stabs right into their feelings of inferiority vis-a-vis America.
And they say Americans have no sense of irony.
成程.

I don't know which is worse: being called an アメリカ人 in Japan,
or "britannique" in France, but somehow I never realised my
dislike was due to a feeling of inferiority.
--
Jim Breen
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Computer Science & Software Engineering,
Monash University, VIC 3800, Australia
ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Cindy
2003-11-18 02:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@i-never-read-hotmail.com
Post by Paul Blay
"Ross Klatte" wrote ...
Post by Ross Klatte
You will note that Canadians enjoy being called "Canucks."
What really tears them up is being called "Americans," as this
stabs right into their feelings of inferiority vis-a-vis America.
And they say Americans have no sense of irony.
成程.
I don't know which is worse: being called an アメリカ人 in Japan,
or "britannique" in France, but somehow I never realised my
dislike was due to a feeling of inferiority.
I met a Korean fellow in a computer room. He sat next to me. I said to
him, "Hi, where are you from?" He said, "I am Japanese ... no, I am
joking. I am from South Korea." Then, we started a conversation. More
precisely, he was bothering the hell out of me by asking me for
introducing a young Japanese girl to him and so on. According to him,
people always think he is Chinese, and he doesn't like to be taken as
Chinese. Therefore, I asked if he was able to distinguish Americans
from British. He shook his head laterally. I am not sure that he was
convinced by my theory that, in this world, there are only two kinds of
people -- Americans and Chinese. However, he stopped to think for a
while and ... probably decided to be an American ... I guess.

FYI (a bit off from what I have written above)

When you are contributing goodness to people and society, disclose your
real nationality so that your nation will get a credit. When you commit
a serious crime like starting a war or murder, tell them you are American.
Sean Holland
2003-11-18 03:17:48 UTC
Permalink
in article aofub.175163$***@attbi_s52, Cindy at ***@attb.com
wrote on 11/17/03 6:23 PM:
(snip)
... my theory that, in this world, there are only two kinds of
people -- Americans and Chinese.
Well, that's a new one. You get points for originality, but I don't know
whether to award or deduct points for your being a raving loony. (Insert
smiley here if desired.)
--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/seanhollandmusic.htm
***@telus.pants.net Remove pants to email me.
Cindy
2003-11-18 13:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean Holland
(snip)
... my theory that, in this world, there are only two kinds of
people -- Americans and Chinese.
Well, that's a new one. You get points for originality,
Yeah, cite the quote when you use it.


but I don't know
Post by Sean Holland
whether to award or deduct points for your being a raving loony. (Insert
smiley here if desired.)
I can not be responsible for that, Sean-sensei.
Sean Holland
2003-11-18 15:15:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Sean Holland
(snip)
... my theory that, in this world, there are only two kinds of
people -- Americans and Chinese.
Well, that's a new one. You get points for originality,
Yeah, cite the quote when you use it.
but I don't know
Post by Sean Holland
whether to award or deduct points for your being a raving loony. (Insert
smiley here if desired.)
I can not be responsible for that, Sean-sensei.
For what? Inserting smileys or being a raving loony?
--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/seanhollandmusic.htm
***@telus.pants.net Remove pants to email me.
Cindy
2003-11-18 20:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean Holland
Post by Cindy
Post by Sean Holland
whether to award or deduct points for your being a raving loony. (Insert
smiley here if desired.)
I can not be responsible for that, Sean-sensei.
For what? Inserting smileys or being a raving loony?
Inserting smileys -- is it my choice or your request?

Being a raving loony -- is the perception you got from me, and I have no
control over your perception system.
necoandjeff
2003-11-18 20:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Being a raving loony -- is the perception you got from me, and I have no
control over your perception system.
Not over the system itself perhaps, but you do have control over what you
feed into it and, hence, indirect control over the output.

Jeff
Cindy
2003-11-18 22:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by necoandjeff
Post by Cindy
Being a raving loony -- is the perception you got from me, and I have no
control over your perception system.
Not over the system itself perhaps, but you do have control over what you
feed into it and, hence, indirect control over the output.
If you are told so, do you agree? I don't think so. Instead, you will
blame on others. You got to help me be American, you see.
necoandjeff
2003-11-19 01:39:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by necoandjeff
Post by Cindy
Being a raving loony -- is the perception you got from me, and I have no
control over your perception system.
Not over the system itself perhaps, but you do have control over what you
feed into it and, hence, indirect control over the output.
If you are told so, do you agree? I don't think so. Instead, you will
blame on others. You got to help me be American, you see.
I do get a little tired of these (tongue-in-cheek?) comments sometimes.
There is a huge difference between the fact (if it is indeed a fact) that
Americans display a tendency toward a particular trait (blaming things on
others in this case) and the notion that it is therefore a trait that is
Americans strive for or that should be identified with being American.
People have some twisted notion that many of the bad traits in America are
actually things that we somehow strive toward or that we actively teach our
kids. Americans generally hold the same ideal of taking responsibility for
your own actions as in any other culture. The fact that this ideal is upheld
less often than in other cultures or that there are fewer people who live up
to that ideal (if those assertions are even true) doesn't make it any less
of an ideal. I've met several Japanese in the past who think that somehow
they should become loud, rude, whiny and/or confrontational when they come
to America so that they can fit in. But this doesn't make them American, it
just makes them loud, rude, whiny and/or confrontational people.

Jeff
Phil Healey
2003-11-18 22:54:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Sean Holland
Post by Cindy
Post by Sean Holland
whether to award or deduct points for your being a raving loony. (Insert
smiley here if desired.)
I can not be responsible for that, Sean-sensei.
For what? Inserting smileys or being a raving loony?
Inserting smileys -- is it my choice or your request?
Being a raving loony -- is the perception you got from me, and I have no
control over your perception system.
If anything on this newsgroup is an incontrovertible fact, it's that
you, Cindy, are a raving loony. No perception systems, no control, no
high-context culture, no Chinese, no American, no smileys.

Just you.

Just raving lunacy.

Nothing else.
Sean Holland
2003-11-19 04:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Sean Holland
Post by Cindy
Post by Sean Holland
whether to award or deduct points for your being a raving loony. (Insert
smiley here if desired.)
I can not be responsible for that, Sean-sensei.
For what? Inserting smileys or being a raving loony?
Inserting smileys -- is it my choice or your request?
Being a raving loony -- is the perception you got from me, and I have no
control over your perception system.
"No" control might be a little strong. If we couldn't affect each others
"perception systems" there wouldn't be much point in talking, making music,
drawing pictures, etc.
--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/seanhollandmusic.htm
***@telus.pants.net Remove pants to email me.
Cindy
2003-11-19 04:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean Holland
Post by Cindy
Being a raving loony -- is the perception you got from me, and I have no
control over your perception system.
"No" control might be a little strong. If we couldn't affect each others
"perception systems" there wouldn't be much point in talking, making music,
drawing pictures, etc.
Do you know "Romeo and Juliet effect"(Walker)? People are made to do
opposite of what they have been told in order to keep their control. So
if you don't want your kids to smoke marijuana, you should tell them to
smoke marijuana -- ha ha, of course, I am joking.
necoandjeff
2003-11-19 06:34:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Sean Holland
Post by Cindy
Being a raving loony -- is the perception you got from me, and I have no
control over your perception system.
"No" control might be a little strong. If we couldn't affect each others
"perception systems" there wouldn't be much point in talking, making music,
drawing pictures, etc.
Do you know "Romeo and Juliet effect"(Walker)? People are made to do
opposite of what they have been told in order to keep their control. So
if you don't want your kids to smoke marijuana, you should tell them to
smoke marijuana -- ha ha, of course, I am joking.
Now it's all starting to make sense. Cindy's been hittin' the giggle weed...

Jeff
Cindy
2003-11-19 13:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean Holland
Post by Cindy
Post by Sean Holland
Post by Cindy
Being a raving loony -- is the perception you got from me, and I have no
control over your perception system.
"No" control might be a little strong. If we couldn't affect each others
"perception systems" there wouldn't be much point in talking, making
music,
Post by Cindy
Post by Sean Holland
drawing pictures, etc.
Do you know "Romeo and Juliet effect"(Walker)? People are made to do
opposite of what they have been told in order to keep their control. So
if you don't want your kids to smoke marijuana, you should tell them to
smoke marijuana -- ha ha, of course, I am joking.
Now it's all starting to make sense. Cindy's been hittin' the giggle weed...
I heard that illegal drugs will relax you when you are stressed? Is
that why college students smoke marijuana? Can I get some at the
bookstore?
Ross Klatte
2003-11-19 22:53:13 UTC
Permalink
Date: 2003-11-19 08:17 Eastern Standard Time
Post by necoandjeff
Post by Cindy
Do you know "Romeo and Juliet effect"(Walker)? People are made to do
opposite of what they have been told in order to keep their control. So
if you don't want your kids to smoke marijuana, you should tell them to
smoke marijuana -- ha ha, of course, I am joking.
Now it's all starting to make sense. Cindy's been hittin' the giggle
weed...
I heard that illegal drugs will relax you when you are stressed?
Not true.
Is that why college students smoke marijuana?
Not true.
Can I get some at the bookstore?
True.

If you don't want your kids to smoke marijuana, you should
tell them that you smoke marijuana regularly. That should
make it repulsively un-cool.

Marijuana is now the number one cash crop of South Carolina.
It used to be number two, behind tobacco. But the dogooders
have done such a good job on the fight against tobacco that
that excellent product is no longer of much use, economically.
America was built by Puritans, by way of witch trials. Nothing
has changed, except the labels. The devil, formerly called
"Satan," is now called "Cigarettes." The witch trials continue
unabated.


Ross
Roebuck, South Carolina
http://community.webshots.com/user/ross_klatte
http://www.geocities.com/sparklecitysue/
http://www.savethescv.org/NC%20Division.htm
Cindy
2003-11-20 04:35:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Klatte
Post by Cindy
I heard that illegal drugs will relax you when you are stressed?
Not true.
You're right. You can actually produce natural pain-killer through your
hormone glands, so why do you want to pay a lot of money to buy theses
stuff?
Post by Ross Klatte
Post by Cindy
Is that why college students smoke marijuana?
Not true.
In speech presentations, most male students made a speech about illegal
drugs such as marijuana, cocaine, and heroines. I dropped my jaw and
couldn't pick it up for a while.
Post by Ross Klatte
Post by Cindy
Can I get some at the bookstore?
True.
I thought so because everybody goes there.
Post by Ross Klatte
If you don't want your kids to smoke marijuana, you should
tell them that you smoke marijuana regularly. That should
make it repulsively un-cool.
naruhodo, but I can't do it.
Post by Ross Klatte
Marijuana is now the number one cash crop of South Carolina.
The U.S. Government must be appreciating South Carolina's harvest and
the income from it.
Post by Ross Klatte
It used to be number two, behind tobacco. But the dogooders
have done such a good job on the fight against tobacco that
that excellent product is no longer of much use, economically.
America was built by Puritans, by way of witch trials.
I can tell the tradition still continues from time to time.
Post by Ross Klatte
Nothing
has changed, except the labels. The devil, formerly called
"Satan," is now called "Cigarettes." The witch trials continue
unabated.
Back in those George Washington times, I bet marijuana must have been
widely available and daily necessity of stress reliever and number two
export goods to Britain! I am just guessing.
Phil Healey
2003-11-18 03:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cindy
Post by Paul Blay
"Ross Klatte" wrote ...
When you are contributing goodness to people and society, disclose your
real nationality so that your nation will get a credit. When you commit
a serious crime like starting a war or murder, tell them you are American.
Or Japanese, as the case may be.
Sean Holland
2003-11-17 15:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brandon Berg
Post by necoandjeff
Post by archagon
display Jap characters.
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?
Lazy, maybe, but no more offensive than Yank, Aussie, Brit, or Merkin.
Perhaps even less so, since it refers to glyphs, rather than people.
Here we go again. For enough of us to count, it's almost as bad as Chink,
nigger, kike and so on. If you want to know why, google the endless
discussions we've had on this. Please wait until everyone presently over 40
has died off, then maybe "Jap" will be like "Brit" or "Kiwi." But it sure
ain't now.
--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/seanhollandmusic.htm
***@telus.pants.net Remove pants to email me.
Paul Blay
2003-11-18 10:25:15 UTC
Permalink
"Sean Holland" wrote ...
Post by Sean Holland
Post by Brandon Berg
Lazy, maybe, but no more offensive than Yank, Aussie, Brit, or Merkin.
Perhaps even less so, since it refers to glyphs, rather than people.
Here we go again. For enough of us to count, it's almost as bad as Chink,
nigger, kike and so on. If you want to know why, google the endless
discussions we've had on this. Please wait until everyone presently over 40
has died off, then maybe "Jap" will be like "Brit" or "Kiwi." But it sure
ain't now.
Check out North Korea making themselves popular.
http://www.fnn-news.com/headlines/CONN00041831.html
archagon
2003-11-17 19:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by necoandjeff
Post by archagon
display Jap characters.
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?
Jeff
You guys are hell-bent on humiliating me to the fullest, aren't you?
You know perfectly well that I was not being offensive.
necoandjeff
2003-11-17 20:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Post by necoandjeff
Post by archagon
display Jap characters.
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?
Jeff
You guys are hell-bent on humiliating me to the fullest, aren't you?
You know perfectly well that I was not being offensive.
Being offensive in this context means engaging in acts that may offend
others. It takes at least two people to give meaning to a word. Intent
(subjective from the speaker's point of view) is only half of the equation.
And, whether or not you are "being offensive" (subjective from the
listener's point of view) is entirely up to the listener. Your intent only
matters if the listener chooses to make it matter. You may argue with the
listener's methodology of determining whether to take offense but you cannot
argue with whether or not they have actually taken offense. This is
precisely why it is important to take other people's feelings into account
when deciding whether to use words like this. Assuming one has heard that a
particular term can be considered offensive by some, the world divides into
two kinds of people. Those whose primary motivation is to avoid offending
people around them will simply avoid using the term (this includes both the
obviously offensive words and the ones, like "jap," about which there may be
some controversy.) Those whose primary motivation is something else (things
like deliberately being offensive, perhaps, or just showing the world that
they are wrong, etc.) or those who simply don't care how other people feel
will not necessarily be so cautious when choosing their words and may
sometimes deliberately choose to use them, knowing they may be considered
offensive. Considerate or inconsiderate/selfish, the choice is yours.

Jeff
Louise Bremner
2003-11-17 22:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Post by necoandjeff
Post by archagon
display Jap characters.
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?
Jeff
You guys are hell-bent on humiliating me to the fullest, aren't you?
You know perfectly well that I was not being offensive.
We do? Drat.... I need that empathy upgrade--I'm still just reading the
words.

________________________________________________________________________
Louise Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Travers Naran
2003-11-17 23:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Post by necoandjeff
Post by archagon
display Jap characters.
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?
Jeff
You guys are hell-bent on humiliating me to the fullest, aren't you?
It seems like it. You're just being treated like a lot of
"interlopers" to the group (I think it's the whole inside/outside
thing in Japanese groups ;-) ).

I don't believe you deserve the massive derision you're getting. And
I'm sorry you're being treated this roughly. If you could try finding
a shareware utility you could use for a couple days, you could post
screen shots on a website somewhere and you're more likely to get
help.
Post by archagon
You know perfectly well that I was not being offensive.
I knew that, and so do most of the people here, unfortunately we live
in oversensitive times and the term "Jap" brings back memories of the
bad old days.

Good luck with your little project!
Sean Holland
2003-11-18 01:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by archagon
You know perfectly well that I was not being offensive.
I knew that, and so do most of the people here, unfortunately we live
in oversensitive times and the term "Jap" brings back memories of the
bad old days.
Good luck with your little project!
As Jeff pointed out, "being offensive" is not a matter of the speaker's
intention. As has been endlessly pointed out in one way or another in this
ng, if you are black and I call you "nigger," it means little for me to say
that I didn't mean it in an offensive way. It is just offensive. When one
hears an offensive term used by one too young or too sheltered to know that
he is using an offensive term, it is only reasonable to point it out to him
so that he can avoid unintentionally giving offence in the future. That he
didn't intend to be offensive has absolutely nothing to do with whether he
was offensive or not.
--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/seanhollandmusic.htm
***@telus.pants.net Remove pants to email me.
necoandjeff
2003-11-18 01:54:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean Holland
When one
hears an offensive term used by one too young or too sheltered to know that
he is using an offensive term, it is only reasonable to point it out to him
so that he can avoid unintentionally giving offence in the future. That he
didn't intend to be offensive has absolutely nothing to do with whether he
was offensive or not.
Reminds me of the first time I used the phrase "mother fucker" (a phrase
that I picked up at the tender age of 5 from overhearing my babysitter
talking with her friends). We were all seated at the dinner table at my aunt
and uncle's house discussing various names we could have given to my
then-just-born sister, Kim. After several possibilities were tossed about,
little 5 year old me piped up with my brilliant suggestion: "Why don't we
just name her mother fucker?" Amid all of the very stifled laughter (which
made me pretty proud at first since it was the only suggestion that resulted
in such a dramatic and joyous reaction), my father promptly carried me into
another room and I can still clearly remember what he said to me: "There are
some words that are ok to say and some that are not. Those are words that
are not ok to say." Needless to say, my babysitter was promptly let go. I've
been using those two mother fucking words ever since...

Jeff
Anonymous Gaijin
2003-11-18 06:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by archagon
Post by necoandjeff
Post by archagon
display Jap characters.
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?
Jeff
You guys are hell-bent on humiliating me to the fullest, aren't you?
It seems like it. You're just being treated like a lot of
"interlopers" to the group (I think it's the whole inside/outside
thing in Japanese groups ;-) ).
I don't believe you deserve the massive derision you're getting. And
I'm sorry you're being treated this roughly. If you could try finding
a shareware utility you could use for a couple days, you could post
screen shots on a website somewhere and you're more likely to get
help.
Post by archagon
You know perfectly well that I was not being offensive.
I knew that, and so do most of the people here, unfortunately we live
in oversensitive times and the term "Jap" brings back memories of the
bad old days.
Good luck with your little project!
Here's my attempt at a translation:

[Read ROM] [Write ROM] [Read RAM] [Write RAM]
[File browser]

-ROM size specification- -RAM bank specification-
0 Automatic 0 Size 0 Automatic 0 Bank No.

-Multi ROM-
[Multi ROM Write] [Add] [Delete] [Clear] -Multi ROM use game list- [Help]
-GJ Card Specification- | | [Options]
Card capacity | | [Exit]
Card volume -------------------------
archagon
2003-11-19 23:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anonymous Gaijin
Post by Travers Naran
Post by archagon
Post by necoandjeff
Post by archagon
display Jap characters.
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?
Jeff
You guys are hell-bent on humiliating me to the fullest, aren't you?
It seems like it. You're just being treated like a lot of
"interlopers" to the group (I think it's the whole inside/outside
thing in Japanese groups ;-) ).
I don't believe you deserve the massive derision you're getting. And
I'm sorry you're being treated this roughly. If you could try finding
a shareware utility you could use for a couple days, you could post
screen shots on a website somewhere and you're more likely to get
help.
Post by archagon
You know perfectly well that I was not being offensive.
I knew that, and so do most of the people here, unfortunately we live
in oversensitive times and the term "Jap" brings back memories of the
bad old days.
Good luck with your little project!
[Read ROM] [Write ROM] [Read RAM] [Write RAM]
[File browser]
-ROM size specification- -RAM bank specification-
0 Automatic 0 Size 0 Automatic 0 Bank No.
-Multi ROM-
[Multi ROM Write] [Add] [Delete] [Clear] -Multi ROM use game list- [Help]
-GJ Card Specification- | | [Options]
Card capacity | | [Exit]
Card volume -------------------------
Thank you so much!

I did mention in a later post that I found a way around the
translation, but this program actually has a few features apparently
that the other one doesn't.
archagon
2003-11-19 23:15:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by archagon
Post by necoandjeff
Post by archagon
display Jap characters.
Offensive on top of everything else. Why am I not surprised?
Jeff
You guys are hell-bent on humiliating me to the fullest, aren't you?
It seems like it. You're just being treated like a lot of
"interlopers" to the group (I think it's the whole inside/outside
thing in Japanese groups ;-) ).
I don't believe you deserve the massive derision you're getting. And
I'm sorry you're being treated this roughly. If you could try finding
a shareware utility you could use for a couple days, you could post
screen shots on a website somewhere and you're more likely to get
help.
Post by archagon
You know perfectly well that I was not being offensive.
I knew that, and so do most of the people here, unfortunately we live
in oversensitive times and the term "Jap" brings back memories of the
bad old days.
Good luck with your little project!
Thanks.
Paul Blay
2003-11-17 07:28:18 UTC
Permalink
"archagon" wrote ...
Post by archagon
And come on! I just wanted some help.
And yet your stated desires seem at odds with your actions.
Travers Naran
2003-11-17 23:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Post by Travers Naran
Post by Michael Cash
Post by Travers Naran
What KWW is trying to say, Archagon, is go to the Microsoft website and
download the "Global IME" (you can type that phrase in their download
search engine) and install it. Everything will work after that. My
version of Windows 98 is the usual Canadian OEM edition, but I've mostly
been able to get Japanese support working. At the very least, you can
see the Japanese characters now.
But that won't solve anything. He'll still want us to tell him what
they say.
But at least this way he has to do some work. ;-)
Thanks. However, I read somewhere that it only works for a few
programs and not everything. I tried it and the program still won't
display Jap characters.
And come on! I just wanted some help.
That's understandable, but since I am still barely able to read even a
children's book, I wish I could help more than that. :-)

Also, it helps to realise there are several people on this group who
make their living doing translations and they find requests for free
translations insulting, they tend to... react badly.

Also, have you asked around the gameboy or warez groups? I'm sure
someone has figured out how to use it, or maybe even hex-edited it to
translate it.
archagon
2003-11-19 23:12:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by archagon
Post by Travers Naran
Post by Michael Cash
Post by Travers Naran
What KWW is trying to say, Archagon, is go to the Microsoft website and
download the "Global IME" (you can type that phrase in their download
search engine) and install it. Everything will work after that. My
version of Windows 98 is the usual Canadian OEM edition, but I've mostly
been able to get Japanese support working. At the very least, you can
see the Japanese characters now.
But that won't solve anything. He'll still want us to tell him what
they say.
But at least this way he has to do some work. ;-)
Thanks. However, I read somewhere that it only works for a few
programs and not everything. I tried it and the program still won't
display Jap characters.
And come on! I just wanted some help.
That's understandable, but since I am still barely able to read even a
children's book, I wish I could help more than that. :-)
Also, it helps to realise there are several people on this group who
make their living doing translations and they find requests for free
translations insulting, they tend to... react badly.
Also, have you asked around the gameboy or warez groups? I'm sure
someone has figured out how to use it, or maybe even hex-edited it to
translate it.
Yes, that's understandable.

I realized I can find a way around the translation now - there's
another program like this. But I doubt the warez/gb groups have
anything on this - GameJack discussions are rare, and this program is
even rarer.
Fabian
2003-11-16 22:03:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
4) I'd post screens, but my comp has no Japanese support. It's a
Windows ME machine, so I can't install it either.
wtf? You realise that means it probably wont even run correctly? Or are
you really that stupid?
--
--
Fabian
Visit my website often and for long periods!
http://www.lajzar.co.uk
archagon
2003-11-17 06:55:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fabian
Post by archagon
4) I'd post screens, but my comp has no Japanese support. It's a
Windows ME machine, so I can't install it either.
wtf? You realise that means it probably wont even run correctly? Or are
you really that stupid?
--
No, it runs fine, I've guessed on some of the options and it works.
And I meant install the lang support, not the program.
Drew Hamilton
2003-11-18 17:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Please help me! I don't know japanese, and online translators can't
translate programs...if you can, please clearly state what each box
and option does here. I really need this and would greatly appreciate
it!
I just read this message and the whole thread. Do you mind a
little constructive criticism on where I think you "went wrong"
with your request? I've seen people come in here with similar
requests (not "translate this program", but what essentially boils
down to "do some translation work for free please") that people
have helped with (though even then you need to take some of the
answers with a grain of salt).

Here's the thing. Although I think that you tried to be polite
with your pleases and thank yous, I don't think that your request
came off as humble enough. Here's what I mean. If my boss comes
to me and says "please do <whatever>.", she doesn't really mean
"please", does she? It's really just a thinly veiled command with
a "please" in front of it to soften it up a bit. Hell, it'll seem
even more like this to people who work with the Japanese language,
since this practice (of saying "please" when you tell someone to
do something) seems even more common there.

So, basically, the way that your request read (to me) was you
coming in here and telling us to translate your program for you.
And you were right in what you said in another post: that
translations cost money. But you were also right in another
sense: that it wouldn't be completely unthinkable for someone to
come to your aid and help you out, but for that to happen I think
you need to work on how to word your requests.

Something like "I've tried the online translators but they can't
help me in this case. I know that you guys are really busy, but
it would really help me out if I could take a few minutes of
someone's time to help me translate a few words on a program's
UI..." Even something like that would have softened up your
request quite a lot and made it sound less like a command.
--
- awh
http://www.awh.org/
archagon
2003-11-19 23:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Drew Hamilton
Post by archagon
Please help me! I don't know japanese, and online translators can't
translate programs...if you can, please clearly state what each box
and option does here. I really need this and would greatly appreciate
it!
I just read this message and the whole thread. Do you mind a
little constructive criticism on where I think you "went wrong"
with your request? I've seen people come in here with similar
requests (not "translate this program", but what essentially boils
down to "do some translation work for free please") that people
have helped with (though even then you need to take some of the
answers with a grain of salt).
Here's the thing. Although I think that you tried to be polite
with your pleases and thank yous, I don't think that your request
came off as humble enough. Here's what I mean. If my boss comes
to me and says "please do <whatever>.", she doesn't really mean
"please", does she? It's really just a thinly veiled command with
a "please" in front of it to soften it up a bit. Hell, it'll seem
even more like this to people who work with the Japanese language,
since this practice (of saying "please" when you tell someone to
do something) seems even more common there.
So, basically, the way that your request read (to me) was you
coming in here and telling us to translate your program for you.
And you were right in what you said in another post: that
translations cost money. But you were also right in another
sense: that it wouldn't be completely unthinkable for someone to
come to your aid and help you out, but for that to happen I think
you need to work on how to word your requests.
Something like "I've tried the online translators but they can't
help me in this case. I know that you guys are really busy, but
it would really help me out if I could take a few minutes of
someone's time to help me translate a few words on a program's
UI..." Even something like that would have softened up your
request quite a lot and made it sound less like a command.
Yeah, I know...but I really didn't mean it as a command. My fault for
wording it like that. Thanks for the suggestions.
archagon
2003-11-19 23:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Err...

That's rather odd, my thread has become a library of philosophical thoughts...
Travers Naran
2003-11-20 02:02:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Err...
That's rather odd, my thread has become a library of philosophical thoughts...
Heheh. Welcome to sci.lang.japan! :-)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
Canada, Earth, Milky Way, etc. | <www.geocities.com/naran500/>
"Stand Back! I'm a programmer!" |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
archagon
2003-11-20 06:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Travers Naran
Post by archagon
Err...
That's rather odd, my thread has become a library of philosophical thoughts...
Heheh. Welcome to sci.lang.japan! :-)
I'd join in, but now everybody here thinks of me as an immature
ignorant 13 year old. In fact, I'm quite philosophical. I write
poetry...
Travers Naran
2003-11-20 07:11:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by archagon
Post by Travers Naran
Post by archagon
Err...
That's rather odd, my thread has become a library of philosophical thoughts...
Heheh. Welcome to sci.lang.japan! :-)
I'd join in, but now everybody here thinks of me as an immature
ignorant 13 year old.
I get treated worse sometimes. :-)
Post by archagon
In fact, I'm quite philosophical. I write
poetry...
Write haiku in Japanese, and you'll do fine! ;-)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
Canada, Earth, Milky Way, etc. | <www.geocities.com/naran500/>
"Stand Back! I'm a programmer!" |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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